Fuel pressure regulator rail system.

[Rugged Path]

02 single spark 1150GSA:
As with a few others here having problems with this model bike, I am at a loss trying to get it back on the road.
It has been over 18 months and still not properly sorted albeit £2K spent via an independent on parts and labour.
He was able to get it going so rode it home but, problems as before soon came back (engine backfiring, plugs sooting up).

All seems to work but it will not fire up.
I have replaced hall sensor unit, repaired frayed wiring, tried with another ECU to no avail.
Last week checked the tank internals, flushed out hoses, new strainer and filter.
Next is the fuel pressure regulator rail.

Is it possible to blow air through the two fuel lines going to the regulator and the injector connections to clear any debris, if any?

My problems initially started when I was riding looking for fuel with the fuel level lower than low, low. I have the adventure tank with the third under frame hose.

Injectors work (tested), I get a spark (visual).
Are they in sequence to fire up the motor?

Surely it cannot be out 180 degrees. I used a timing box to sync OT with the hall sensors.

https://store.bobsmotorcycles.com/microfiche/DisplayImage.aspx?Size=Full&Type=Z&ImageID=185247

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[Paul Young]

Ignition runs on a ‘wasted spark’ basis so they aren’t sequential.
You can remove the FPR and ensure pipes are clear easily, then fit a FPR from a K1200/1300 as a cheap performance mod since they run at 3.5 bar and give an improved throttle response.

 

[Vern]

I've got a set of hoses with the regulator sat on the shelf if you want to have a borrow and see if that makes a difference. I'm not a million miles away from you so pop over if you like. Give me a ring 01829 771040

 

[Rugged Path]

I've got a set of hoses with the regulator sat on the shelf if you want to have a borrow and see if that makes a difference. I'm not a million miles away from you so pop over if you like. Give me a ring 01829 771040

Thank you Vern for this offer but, that would be my last resort considering the need to remove so many parts it seems to do it.

I feel despair sometimes trying to solve this issue as it becomes mentally consuming. Still, got no hair to pull out.


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[Rugged Path]

Other questions.
Would any debris in the tank get as far as the fuel pressure regulator and rail system?

Would I need to remove the ABS pump to access it, or just battery box and Bowden throttle box?

Is it something that would normally give problems?

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[Ian J Hartley]

The fuel pressure regulator opens to pass excess fluid back to the tank. So the opening pressure of the regulator should be the pressure in the fuel rail for the injectors. It could be that the regulator is stuck open through debris and therefore your fuel rail pressure could be down. However, if you disconnect the return line to the tank and blank it off, you take the pressure regulator out of circuit, then the fuel rail pressure will be at whatever pressure your pump can deliver.

You need Fuel, Air, Ignition and compression.

Revisit, all the work you have done on the bike since it last ran, and make sure you have done everything correctly.

 

[Rugged Path]

As Ian said, I am backtracking to help sort my problem of why it won't fire up.
I am getting pressure in tank, good fuel flow from both open injector rails. Installed back injectors, attached solenoid attachment cables.
Ignition on, press starter and no fuel being sprayed with both OEM and Bosch 1200 injectors fitted.

Have checked fuses and replaced relays before. Checked solenoids on injectors and they do work off the bike.

It has fired up before in the garage. So it has to be something simple; just that I am not seeing it. Very soul destroying having had it since new.

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[oblertone]

Ahem ...

 

[DrFarkoff]

Solenoids may work but are they getting signal? You need a Noid an LED thing that clips into the loom side and flashes with injector pulses If you have injector flashes then that should be good

You may have fuel flow but do you have pressure? pair of pliers on the return line and squish return pipe gently, If you hear the pump groan then the lines to that point are okay "but" the FPR may be being held open by some debris so you are not developing pressure So Get a gauge in the line before the FPR I think you should be seeing approx 25 ~ 30 psi

If you do not have a groan then you may have a split internal pressure side pipe and needs checked
Timing is basically just every revolution. Nothing Fancy Both Injectors one half Both Sparkplugs the other 1 gate on disc and 2 x hall sensors and with the hall sensor plate set half and half on the screw holes It should be well enough timed to get sparks and squirts in approximately the correct time

 

[MikeO]

Ahem ...

My first thought - check the cable seating at both ends...

 

[Rugged Path]

My first thought - check the cable seating at both ends...

Not the problem as checked.

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[Ian J Hartley]

Putting your finger in the injector as you crank the bike will tell you If the injector is being triggered, you should feel the solenoid operating.

If it isn’t operating, then either you have no +12 volts (pin 1 green/white) or you have no signal from the motronic.
The injector +12volts is powered briefly like the fuel pump when ignition first turned on (same power supply). But should reappear constantly when the engine is cranked.
If you take the connector off the injector. Have a look to see if the contacts are locked in the connector housing. They should be visible and resist gently pressure.

If you can satisfy yourself that you have a +12Volts at the injector, and you know the injector works (off bike) then it looks like you may not be getting the signal from the motronic which is fed from the hall sensor.

 

[Rugged Path]

Ian,
I tried using a 12v lamp tester to see whether there is power to the pin 1 (green/white) connection and nothing.

Basically clipped injector pin 1 spade and lamp probe to female connectors in socket. IGN on, run position and start. Lamp not lighting so no power to solenoid.

To backtrack, I replaced the hall sensor unit, used a timing box + scribe marks to position correctly.
Most harness plug side wires showed wire sheathing badly deteriorated so replaced that plug. Could not get pins out so cut off plug & some wire. Bought a new plug with already wired up pins. Spliced and soldered joints and tested for continuity from new plug pins to the big ECU plug connection. I have the schematic for that on phone.

Already from other threads I have wrote, too much has been spent on parts / bmw indie labour to sort this out.
Troubleshooting is time / labour consuming so can’t afford to give it out again to sort.

Besides mechanical faults, would a GS911 be able to identify the problem more specifically.


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[Ian J Hartley]

Ian,
I tried using a 12v lamp tester to see whether there is power to the pin 1 (green/white) connection and nothing.

Besides mechanical faults, would a GS911 be able to identify the problem more specifically.


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The GS911 will only tell you if you have no hall sensor trigger. Which might help, though I doubt it. You say you have ignition so assuming you have repaired the wiring correctly, then it’s possible to assume that the injection side of the hall sensor is working. However, without 12v on pin 1 of the injectors, the trigger which is a negative going pulse from the motronic (hall sensor) then the injector will not operate.

your problem is no 12v at the injector pin 1. This is the same power that feeds the fuel pump. So if the pump runs then you have a wiring fault. There is a redundant connector located on the right hand side frame rail just rear of the seat. The connector is easily identified as it is the same as those on the injectors. Make sure that the wiring to that connector hasn’t worn through and causing a high resistance path to the frame.

here is what you can try.
push a dressmakers pin through the green/white wire that feeds both injectors. The dressmakers pin should pass through the wire sheath making contact with the wire. Then feed 12v directly to the pins. Being careful not to short out to ground. All being well, your bike should start and run.

making sure that all connectors are connected and all fuel lines are closed.

 

[Rugged Path]

Continuity between main harness hall sensor plug and main ECU connector.
Note, some have many spliced wires in the harness to light up several pins at the same time.

Hoping this shows how it should be.

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[Ian J Hartley]

You would expect to see multiple Browns because these are earths. The clear wire is the screen which is also connected to earth. I’m a bit confused as to why your Orange wire and Brown wire are on the same pin of the ECU and why the Red wire Black wire are also on the same pin of ECU.
This is how the Hall sensor wiring should be with reference to ECU connector.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

To be honest, I’m a little confused where you are with your fault finding. I know you had issues with the main wiring loom hall sensor connector and spliced in a replacement. Assuming your soldering is good and the repair was properly insulated, then I fail to understand why you are into checking the wiring up to the ECU connector.

Let me explain to you what happens during the bike start cycle. you probably know all of this, but it’s worth repeating just in case. We will take it for granted that the side stand is up, the bike is in neutral and everything is connected.

1. When you turn the ignition on, you should hear the fuel pump run briefly. This is so the fuel rail can be pressurised. What happens electrically is that the ECU controls the fuel pump relay to close for a few seconds and then opens. During this brief period 12v is supplied via the green/white wire from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump, both injectors and the lambda sensor (also the redundant connector on the frame)
2. Now when you press the start button and the engine rotates, All being well with the Hall sensor, it will signal to the ECU that the engine is turning. At this point the ECU will close the fuel pump relay and 12v will be supplied permanently to the fuel pump, both injectors, the lambda sensor and that redundant connector.
3. At the same time as (2) The hall sensor timing pulses will be sent to the ECU to fire the ignition coil and 180deg later the Fuel injectors.
4. Assuming you have fuel, and ignition, and the valves are closing to provide compression. Then the engine should spark into life.

You said you aren’t getting 12v at pin 1 green/white wire of the injectors. This is significant.

 

[Rugged Path]

You said you aren’t getting 12v at pin 1 green/white wire of the injectors. This is significant.

Also not at the other connection you mentioned near the rear, under seat.

I may remove the fusebox assembly to check condition of wiring harness as I can see some of the outer sheathing falling apart.

Will also recheck my previous work. As you mentioned, the problem maybe a wiring fault somewhere.

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[Ian J Hartley]

You probably didn’t understand what I said in post 14 about using a dressmakers pin.

Well here it is in picture form. It’s a technique that allows you to add and check voltages and resistances whilst maintaining the electrical integrity of the bikes wiring. It does put a small hole in the insulation which can let in moisture causing corrosion, but a small bit of grease applied to the wire after pin removal should help with preservation.

Just make sure that if you are applying voltages, then there is no danger of the pin shorting out to earth. Better still make sure the source you have for applying the voltage has a fuse in it.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Sounds like the wiring on your bike is in a poor condition.

You are looking for a crimped terminal (X9650) which will have 6 green/white wires all crimped together. This may be in the fuse box, but as there is only one wire in the fuse box (Fuel pump relay) it may well be outside of the fuse box buried in the main wiring harness somewhere.

Removing the bottom of the fuse box, you will see a whole bunch of wiring stubs wrapped in insulation tape. If you find a bunch of 6 wires all Green/White, then your in the right place. Under the tape are groups of crimped terminations. It’s how they build the looms. Working back from the connectors they then crimp all wires of the same colour together.

The Green/White wire crimp (X9650) should have 6 wires going to it.

1. Fuel pump relay
2. Fuel pump
3. Left Injector
4. Right injector
5. Unused Connector
6. Lambda probe