Riding Skills - Please read

Their friggin ego.
Common phrases of the average male egostistical biker.


Ive been ridin since i were knee high to a grasshopper.....
No-ones gonna teach me about riding me bike...
I aint going to no namby pamby poxy riding school....
Advanced riding is for nobs...

Funny that, these are normally the "nobs" i leave behind on the twisties,cos ive been trained properly,and i can read the road:augie.
So if you do one worthwhile thing this year, go and spend some of your bling money and get trained properly.:thumb
Its the best accessory you can buy for your bike.

Giles' threads are looking good, getting some ideas forward and interesting to add to as there are many different "ways". Sadly bike shop carparks are full of bullshit artists that rarely hit a twisty and crap themselves if it rains.

Never stop learning...:thumb2
 
I've been riding around 26 years now and consider myself a 'fair to cr*p' rider. Always been ever so slightly scared of bikes (after getting 2 metal pins from falling off a pushbike)...... but also love them in equal measure. For me, that balance of fear and love has helped me to never have a crash ...... YET.

Beyond doubt the most I've ever learnt on a bike was a bikesafe course I did a few years ago. I'll be going on another shortly - when I get my GS.

Many, many thanks for this advice; delivered in 'easy' to understand format.

Cheers Giles, much appreciated. :beerjug:

Kim
 
Ok, Good stuff. (And thanks to all for the positive feedback).

Just out of interest, the origins and the thought process behind the national bikesafe package, was to give motorcyclists a taste of further training - esp those that you'd not normally find at your local, say, IAM club. The thinking was, give them the idea that training can be interesting, challenging, can genuinely improve your riding, and they might take it up with a local club on their monthly meets.

I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say that some of the time, Bikesafe (think big picture, accident stats, a lot of sports bike accidents etc) doesn't quite haul in the very riders it wants to attract.

Its true to say that bikers still spend hundreds and hundreds of pounds on cans, power comanders, suspension, carbon this and that.. you name it. But very few will either spend a couple of hundred quid on a good road based training company or check out their local advanced group. And I promise you, I promise you, that further training, and how to ride quickly and still safely, is a bigger investment into your biking life than any aftermarket goodie you'll ever buy! (And it will stay with you for ever..!).

I am very passionate about it :toungincheek
 
Every day is a learning curve!!

I'm very pleasedto see this. Thanks to Giles and other future contributors.

You'll get some crap from certain quarters of course. Usually those who are, of course completely confident and competent.

I'll always listen. I started riding again 8 years ago. I failed my test 3 times. I have very little natural talent but love riding with a passion.

Since finally passing my test I've done about 20 days and half days of professional training, none incidentally with the IAM, of which I am a member (passed my test without an allocated observer or coaching).

Despite recently having an assesment where my riding was complemented as being at a very good level, I still feel barely competent. I'll continue to learn, train and hopefully improve with the help of good folk like yourself Giles.

My thanks in advance.

Now, how about some exercises to get me turning in a bit later on tight right handers then?



Yes everyday is a learning curve and if i go away at the end of the day knowing something i didnt know before then I'm quite happy. I passed my car test first time, and then my bike test and then both parts of my HGV including the articulated bit (shame i'm not so articulate in my writing!!!) but it doesnt mean i'm a cocky b*****d it just means i listen to what im told. I try to ride defensively and anything that may possibly prolong my life riding what my folks call "one of them bloody dangerous bikes ". SOOO, cmon then gis some advice I can bugger off and practice!!.:moped::tarka:tarka
 
Giles i have done bike safe and skills for life this year and haven't regretted a minute of the time spent on either. keep up the good work on this topic - there are plenty of us who really appreciate what you are doing.

one thing I have not been able to find is a series of drawings showing the correct line through a variety of different bends and maybe some linked ones which seems to be at the heart of a lot of training. its not in the IAM book( how to be a better rider) or the police one motorcycle road craft. there is plenty of discussion about positioniong on entry ( and your photos in the positioning thread cover this) but not through the bend(s). At bike safe the police tutor drew some lines on a white board showing the difference between the racing line and the road line. this is one of the aspects of my riding that has changed the most and as is said often a picture can be worth a thousand words.

keep up the good work :thumb2
 
Giles i have done bike safe and skills for life this year and haven't regretted a minute of the time spent on either. keep up the good work on this topic - there are plenty of us who really appreciate what you are doing.

one thing I have not been able to find is a series of drawings showing the correct line through a variety of different bends and maybe some linked ones which seems to be at the heart of a lot of training. its not in the IAM book( how to be a better rider) or the police one motorcycle road craft. there is plenty of discussion about positioniong on entry ( and your photos in the positioning thread cover this) but not through the bend(s). At bike safe the police tutor drew some lines on a white board showing the difference between the racing line and the road line. this is one of the aspects of my riding that has changed the most and as is said often a picture can be worth a thousand words.

keep up the good work :thumb2

The term race line is always very subjective, I quite like Keith Code's definition of the "correct" line, which is one that allows you to follow his throttle control rule number one, which is:

"Once the throttle is applied it should be rolled on evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn" or something like that, cannot be arsed to look up the exact phrase. And basically applies to getting on the gas after turning in.

Anyway, this works quite well on the road, if you take a line on the road where you cannot (OK cannot safely) follow this rule then you are probably not on a good line.

Although the track application is purely dealing with line related to going from A-B where visibility is of no concern, it still works well on the road, you can still take a crap line with good vision.

If you find you need to back off mid-turn the line is wrong, regardless of if this is caused by lack of visibility or poor line choice.
 
If you find you need to back off mid-turn the line is wrong, regardless of if this is caused by lack of visibility or poor line choice.

A few others.... too quick entry speed, wrong gear, on throttle too early, freezing mid turn etc, etc (outta ground clearance on a Harley:D).

That's the thing about riding, training and self analysis. If you ride and don't self analyse you stuff then you are going to keep doing the same things. The best thing about these threads is it shows that riding is easy enough when you are experienced, confident, relaxed and thinking but very complex to learn off the bat or teach.

Experience is the top thing and I have been told things by many people over the years who ride 2/3k miles a year tops, mainly weekends and only when it's sunny.

You have to mix the theory with much practice to get a feel for your riding and learn and keep learning. And if you fck up, work it out and try not to repeat:thumb
 
Anyway, this works quite well on the road, if you take a line on the road where you cannot (OK cannot safely) follow this rule then you are probably not on a good line.

Ummmmmmmmmmm!!!!????!!

I understand what you're saying, and Codes 'rule no. one' is not too far removed from the driving school 'ease and squeeze', but it's track stuff, not road stuff!
Any vehicle, bike or car, needs to be balanced on corner entry, and we do that by making sure we've entered the corner at the right speed, so that as our view opens we can drive on a cracked open throttle, getting that 60/40 weight distribution. This gives us a beautifully balanced bike.
When we get it wrong we 'charge' (into) a corner, we're in too fast to get on the gas, so the bike (or car) is unbalanced, the front is over loaded, the weight distribution is wrong, we struggle to turn it, and this leads to a catalogue of unfolding errors (stiff arms, target fixation, stuck off the throttle or worse still grab the front brake ... crash!!).

The idea that the perfect line allows for a cracked throttle as early as possible, is fine on a track. Speed speed speed!! get on the gas early, kiss the paintwork on the apex ..... come on, the clock is ticking!! I need to beat my 58 seconds round the Indy circuit!!

Suitable for the road? Nah!! I am a serious petrol head and have been doing track days since the mid eighties. (Not long sold my track zx6..), and I don't mind blowing smoke up my own arse and saying I'm a bloody quick road rider! But I seperate my track day head from my road head and what dictates my road head, is safety and view.
I know what yer saying, (balance and all that..) but it's about view, not getting on the gas as early as you can! :thumb
 
Ummmmmmmmmmm!!!!????!!

I understand what you're saying, and Codes 'rule no. one' is not too far removed from the driving school 'ease and squeeze', but it's track stuff, not road stuff!
Any vehicle, bike or car, needs to be balanced on corner entry, and we do that by making sure we've entered the corner at the right speed, so that as our view opens we can drive on a cracked open throttle, getting that 60/40 weight distribution. This gives us a beautifully balanced bike.
When we get it wrong we 'charge' (into) a corner, we're in too fast to get on the gas, so the bike (or car) is unbalanced, the front is over loaded, the weight distribution is wrong, we struggle to turn it, and this leads to a catalogue of unfolding errors (stiff arms, target fixation, stuck off the throttle or worse still grab the front brake ... crash!!).

The idea that the perfect line allows for a cracked throttle as early as possible, is fine on a track. Speed speed speed!! get on the gas early, kiss the paintwork on the apex ..... come on, the clock is ticking!! I need to beat my 58 seconds round the Indy circuit!!

Suitable for the road? Nah!! I am a serious petrol head and have been doing track days since the mid eighties. (Not long sold my track zx6..), and I don't mind blowing smoke up my own arse and saying I'm a bloody quick road rider! But I seperate my track day head from my road head and what dictates my road head, is safety and view.
I know what yer saying, (balance and all that..) but it's about view, not getting on the gas as early as you can! :thumb

Yep, I was thinking... the thing about a track is you are trying to optimise the corner and it is just unfortunate when something like another rider gets in the way... as... on the road you are trying to optimise the safe negotiation of the corner and other things are to be expected.

Sadly, it is when you ride the road like a track that the clock is ticking on your luck. I know this through youthful experience:augie

That is why i like the road... there are many other things/parameters to keep working on to make it "good riding". I learnt many things as a courier by self analysis as ignorance is definately not bliss for riding like that, it is crashes:augie
 
countersteering

I ride a Street triple and a GS. I think because of different steering geometry it seems to me the countersteering input is very different between the two of them. On the street a very conscious push on the inside bar gets the turn started or tightened whereas on the GS I can , for example weave around manhole covers or tip into a turn by what feels like most like a hip movement and actually in terms of hands input the opposite of countersteering. any thoughts about this or ho ho counter views? what do you think about to get rapid steering input on your GS or is it all instinctive ?

:beerjug:
 
I ride a Street triple and a GS. I think because of different steering geometry it seems to me the countersteering input is very different between the two of them. On the street a very conscious push on the inside bar gets the turn started or tightened whereas on the GS I can , for example weave around manhole covers or tip into a turn by what feels like most like a hip movement and actually in terms of hands input the opposite of countersteering. any thoughts about this or ho ho counter views? what do you think about to get rapid steering input on your GS or is it all instinctive ?

:beerjug:

Countersteering often feels instinctive and very easy on bikes like GS's due to the tiller like steering (wide bars). Also it turns very easily anyhow. On bikes like the Speed Trip you have narrower bars and the old ones had slowish steering so it's far more pronounced. Also all bikes have a natural speed which the forward momentum drops enough for the bike to start to tip on its own. GS's sometimes feel like this probably due to the Telelever.

A good test is to ride up to about 40 and nearly :)DLiability get out:D) let go of the bars and see how it reacts as it naturally decellerates. At some point around 15-20 it will probably start to veer slightly left/right and then drop in at walking pace. Obviously find a quiet place to test this and not the middle of the North Circ at rush hour:blast

Another test is to go round a relatively big roundabout using you right palm for the throttle and when you lean you will be pushing (unless you're exiting left:D).

It will be instincive ot most blokes on here but it's good to know when you need to avoid some bstrd in an rush:D
 
whereas on the GS I can , for example weave around manhole covers or tip into a turn by what feels like most like a hip movement and actually in terms of hands input the opposite of countersteering. :beerjug:


Yes - the GS is quite a 'hippy' bike.

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Look at the difference in styles between say moto gp and super moto. Sports bikes are designed for weight over the front, counter steering, hanging off, arse out the saddle ..... But some bikes have a different feel and are more flickable from the centre of gravity for want of a better way of explaining it! And the GS, with it's wide bars, will turn well from your hips and 'flick', where as your street triple will want lots of input on your bars. :thumb
 
Wrigsby, Giles thanks for the replies. amazing film of the supermoto maniacs. don't think I should try their hairpin bend technique on hard knott pass which is close to where I live. good to know that my sense of how to steer a Gs was not too far off the mark - had not discussed this issue with anyone before :thumb
 
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As you are in the lucky positiong of having two different types of bike, you can jump from one to t'other and experiment with styles of riding.

Some folks push a bike underneath them, especially GS style traily / supermotoey stuff. I've had sports bikes all my life and pushing a bike down underneath me just doesn't come naturally to me.

I like to push against my outside peg and push my weight forward, (pushing myself forward from my toes) over the front, crooking my arm. Almost like a knights move on a chess board. One step forward and one diagonally to, in this case, the left.

Look at my riding partner on the right; he won't get his weight forward and slightly to the inside of the corner - I keep telling him!! :rob His head is all wrong - it should be leading him!!

Look at his almost straight left arm rather than crooked. By weighting your front (moving yourself forward by just 6") you will move 25? 30? kilos of body weight. Your front will feel more planted, your elbows will flex, your steering will be looser (think elbows like the super moto vid above), your head will lead you more, and the net result? You ride round the outside of your best buddy!!! That's my style, and would probably suit your street tripple.

You may well find though that when you ride the GS, you adopt the more hippy style of pushing it down underneath you? As I say, I struggle with that a little bit, and always default to sports bike mode, but for some, it's a very effective way of flicking their bike about underneath them.
Go practice!! :thumb
 
Once again a load of mistakes drilled out of riders by the CSS which so many claim is "not suitable for the road"

Here we possibly have:

Head in wrong position
Possibly not really looking where he is going, or far enough forward
Tense on bars
Arms Straight
Possibly body not as stable as it should be

In fact he looks very uncomfortable, though I think I would trying to lean a big beemer like that so far over!

Bet he still gets along a fair bit quicker than me, but send him to Mr Code and I bet he would come back faster and safer - road or track.
 
You and yer fecking CSS.......!!!!!!!!:D

I swear you've got shares in them .....
 
Just think too many people have a narrow perspective on what will and won't aid them on the road, it all helps in my book and I think the CSS stuff is great, the DVD is about £15 and 99% of riders would get something useful out of it, I like the schools too, but at over £350 they are a bit rich for most people.

I would like to ask about the picture, it looked like spirited riding on the public highway, in fact the sort that may get a non-copper a ticket for Due Care or Dangerous driving.

I was once pulled for exiting a roundabout too quickly by some arse of a bike copper, not a generalist statement of my thoughts on coppers, I had a copper as a neighbour at the time and I could not repeat on this forum his description of the chap.

At what point does spirited riding typically become likely to get you in trouble?

I found out the hard way wheelies are frowned upon :blast
 
At what point does spirited riding typically become likely to get you in trouble?


(The picture was a magazine shoot...)

I can't give you a definitive answer on that, because one persons opinion, will differ from another. Ultimately a court would decide what is dangerous, what is not in proper control or what is careless.

Careless riding (driving) is when your standard of riding falls below that expected of a competant and careful driver. Dangerous is when it falls 'far' below.

Is scraping a knee slider or popping a little wheelie careless or dangerous? What would the average driver think? Would you convince a court that this wasn't careless at all but actually quite skillful? (probably not!)

Coppers are only human, and some will be more tolerant than others. If I followed somebody riding at 80 in a 60, and they were riding well, I might not even stop them! I might pull up along side, gesture a slow down / calm down affair and leave them to it. Is that right or wrong? Purists would argue you're not judge and jury, it's not for you to decide, you shouldn't use your discretion so much. I would argue, let me decide within reason, who is riding like a plum, and who is admittedly over the speed limit, but riding well and doesn't deserve a ticket! Would I give a ticket to a rider doing the same speed but riding badly, maybe its raining, maybe he's done a few lairy overtakes ... Yeah, I probably would. Am I wrong for using my discretion? (would the rider who was left alone think I'm a good copper, and the one that got the ticket think I'm an arse??!!!)

Take ten of your work colleagues and make them a copper for a day. ''Bloody hell ..... Imagine John .... he'd be like flipping Stalin, he'd book everybody. What about Mark?, Jeez, he's so laid back he'd let every body off...''.

There's no easy answer, sorry!! (Well there is ... don't get caught... :aidan)
 
Like the bit about how you "think" your shape on your sports bike. I had the saying "lead with your shoulder, elbow and hip" from some article years ago. I used to move naturally to change weight distribution on sporty stuff after seriously running out of ground clearance while sitting "on" my 1st sports bike with a not good outcome.

I don't move on my GS as it doesn't feel right to me but the bars are so much higher and you sit more in the middle as opposed to "over the front" as you said and also "in" the bike as opposed to on it.

Your oppo in the pic looks "locked" at about his lean limit at that point but you have gone in deeper and let the bike do the work which is part of the fun:D I have always tried to get across to folk that the bike is not the limit and it is happy as long as you are.

I have had many friends join the Police and come into contact with many more over the years. It is amazing how many want to push the rule book down your throat and how many are totally common sense. Sadly it is a wide margin!

I always see the Traffic laws as the black and white or grey ones. The grey ones are open to interpretation as to the "what" and how" of your riding. The black and white ones are not.
 


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