Urban Riding

Well Giles has stirred up some debate over the 'Fingers versus no fingers over the levers' approach. Debate is good :thumb2

Living in central London I will always hit busy traffic or challenging scenarios, no matter where I go. That 99 journeys out of 100 result in nothing untoward does not mean that the 100th will do too.

Whilst it's difficult to guess what anyone means, I can only assume that what Giles is putting forward is as follows:

Riding in dense traffic, whether it be a motorway or a busy town (by 'busy' I mean lots going on, but not necessary fast moving*) is different to hooning down the open road.

People, instead of taking off more speed or altering their position (the great mantra starts, Position, Speed.....) increase their speed / adopt a less satisfactory position but substitute covering their levers for the extra fraction of a second it might bring. Maybe what Giles is suggesting is that by sacrificing some more speed and / or adopting alternative positions based on looking ahead and - to some degree or another - using some imagination as to what might happen, the rider may be able to build in the extra gap that reduces the need to cover the levers..... in that you WILL be able to stop.

Keith Code's 'Twist of the wrist' book talks about a rider having a number of credits that they can use up, substituting comfort aids to replace a lack of credits when things get tough. Code's belief is that, when racing, the substitution of comfort aids - rather than the rider working on better employing (or increasing) the number of credits available - makes for a worse racer. The same should apply to normal road riding.

Maybe Giles is suggesting that by increasing the number of credits (less Speed, better Position, more use of Information) an over reliance -or an over confidence in - the comfort of covering levers might be reduced? That, in his view, makes for a better over all rider.


Maybe it is something worth considering and / or trying?
Who knows, it may work and cost nothing.

======


*There again, 20 miles an hour might suddenly seem very fast when it's the wheels of att's articulated lorry heading for you.... or Mrs Miggins and her pram stepping out, just as that black Volvo closes your escape route and the lights on the the three-way junction have just gone green.... :D
 
Mmmmmmmmm Interesting!!!!

Ok, first off, I stand by what I say!! I believe that there's nothing wrong with having an opinion, and I agree with Wapping - it's good to boot a few ideas about.
I choose not to cover my levers. Schtum writes about 'lowest common denominator' and 'the abilities of others on the basis of your own limitations' !!!!!!!!!! I had a good chuckle if I'm honest. A vip escort working bike (as opposed to the easy rider) will arrive in a junction, finding neutral on the move whilst braking with his foot and stopping the traffic with a hand in the air, from 50, 60, 70mph? Brake with your foot? brake with your hand? neutral at 30mph without looking? You simply won't cope unless you have excellent machine control. (Infact if yer having to think bike control, you're no good for the team...)

If I'm honest (wapping) I don't think people ride around covering brakes because they're concerned somebody's going to run out in front of them, I think its a habbit they've just picked up and have got used to. I think it was Johnny Boxer ? who said he learned off road riding first and then transfered it to the road, carrying over some of those skills. I understand that completely, and sometimes it's i/ hard to undo what you know and what you're comfortable with, and ii/ perceived as unnecessary because you're now skilled and able to control a bike in a certain way. Is that about right? I'd be interested if people said I do in town but don't out in the rural. (which would make me wrong and wapping right!! :blast).

But I do agree with Wapping's theory on speed / positioning / covering levers.

I know you all barf at the mention of Roadcraft..:D (Me too mostly ..) but some of it is very relevant. There's a line in there somewhere that says something like 'using the horn does not justify excessive speed for the circumstances' (something like that..). And this is basically what Wapping is saying. Quite right!

So yes, one of the reasons I don't cover my levers is that I don't feel the urban need to, because I'll think and deal with my hazzards in my positioning and speed rather than just cover my brakes and hope for the best. But I stand by the original thread too, which is, I see some right clangers going on in heavy traffic with dragging feet, walking the bike, crap control and all often accompanied by a thumb controling the throttle while fingers are on brake levers. (If you can do it, great! relax!!!).

(I'll often cover my horn passing a dodgy 'what can't I see' scenario contradicting everything above, You could equally argue, 'well slow down a bit more then'..)

I can't stress enough, that (IMHO!!!!) there is a place for this sort of thinking and 'soft science' (See what we did there Rasher..)

Yer think I'm not a lunatic when I get the chance??!! Of course I am!!
Roadcraft, advanced riding (don't like that! sounds very pretentious..!), call it what you like, I do think about it, all the time. Does it mean I'm a stuffed shirt with no natural ability, over trained, over schooled, no character, no identity, ride around thinking position speed gear all the time........ NO!!!!!!!
Does it mean I think about it, I'm fluid, flexible, adaptable, ride with passion, have fun..... YES!!!!! :rolleyes:
 
I choose not to cover my levers. Schtum writes about 'lowest common denominator' and 'the abilities of others on the basis of your own limitations' !!!!!!!!!! I had a good chuckle if I'm honest. A vip escort working bike (as opposed to the easy rider) will arrive in a junction, finding neutral on the move whilst braking with his foot and stopping the traffic with a hand in the air, from 50, 60, 70mph? Brake with your foot? brake with your hand? neutral at 30mph without looking? You simply won't cope unless you have excellent machine control. (Infact if yer having to think bike control, you're no good for the team...)

You choose what you will - that's fine by me. What's not is prescribing doom and destruction for anyone who chooses to do something different.

The rest smacks of some of the arrogance I encountered from members of my local force on their Bikesafe scheme who clearly thought that because they were trained to the nth degree they were automatically "better" riders. That wasn't borne out in practice and some of them were less than receptive to having mistakes in their riding pointed out.

We're all fallible, we all make mistakes. Unfortunately, that's part of the human condition. I applaud what you're doing in terms of offering advice which might just help to keep people safe on the road but that doesn't mean that there's just one way to do it; especially in respect of machine control.
 
Having rode for forty odd years and still in one piece i must be doing something right i filter with caution if i dont like the look of it i hold back if someone is held up tough titty i might be doing them a favor i prefer filtering through stationary/slow moving traffic if it is moving close to the posted speed limit then go with the flow i drive in london every day and see filtering from the sublime usually couriers to the ridiculus mostly twats on scooters
having done two ridesafe days over time they are worth doing for a refresher as it is easy to slip into bad habits
 
You choose what you will - that's fine by me. What's not is prescribing doom and destruction for anyone who chooses to do something different.

The rest smacks of some of the arrogance I encountered from members of my local force on their Bikesafe scheme who clearly thought that because they were trained to the nth degree they were automatically "better" riders. That wasn't borne out in practice and some of them were less than receptive to having mistakes in their riding pointed out.

We're all fallible, we all make mistakes. Unfortunately, that's part of the human condition. I applaud what you're doing in terms of offering advice which might just help to keep people safe on the road but that doesn't mean that there's just one way to do it; especially in respect of machine control.

Nice one... couldn't agree more. Some members of the force seem to be normal guys aka OP Giles and some have a stick stuck up their backside re "the way". In fact that will apply to quite a few who have done the Police training for plebs also who can bore you shitless by what their "mantra mentor" has said.

I have known bike coppers who have had far more spectacular and twattish accidents than me and also I see quite a few ex police/nearly ex bikes with heavy frontals etc for sale on sites like M/works etc:augie We are all thankfully human....

That is the main thing about these threads.... Anyone can learn something from anyone so keep the debate rolling:thumb

As for couriers... they have never earnt much from having crashes so the skills curve is usually steep and lasting. I bought a bike from a bloke in Catford last year and was still able to mix it easily and safely on the South Circ/Friday PM on my way out west. Was a little narrower than a GS though...:augie:D
 
motorway cops beeb tonight - accident where foreign truck hit car with mum and kid in blind spot - exactly like the man said ! :clap
 
motorway cops beeb tonight - accident where foreign truck hit car with mum and kid in blind spot - exactly like the man said ! :clap

We all "should" spot a foreign plate if we are experienced. After all when in Europe we usually stand out ourselves...

I have had an EU car pull out on me looking the other way a couple of times. As for trucks.... a wide berth for normal, wider when foreign... very, very wide if they look like they are on the phone or watching Star Trek...:augie
 
average 15k a year rider here in various countries n all traffic conditions


A small point which might be worth making and its so obvious and we all know it which is NEVER EVER forget to check the space that you are heading for when you change lane it is SO easy to get complacent and occasionally forget which is defo not a good idea as the lane discipline in this country seems to me to be disintigrating
wonder what prompted this wee post:augie
 
A vip escort working bike (as opposed to the easy rider) will arrive in a junction, finding neutral on the move whilst braking with his foot and stopping the traffic with a hand in the air, from 50, 60, 70mph? Brake with your foot? brake with your hand? neutral at 30mph without looking? You simply won't cope unless you have excellent machine control. (Infact if yer having to think bike control, you're no good for the team...)

So what were Kent Police escorting when several (10-12) police vans were going across the Elephant and Castle roundabout about 0650 this morning. I assumed that they were all heading for a breakfast :augie meeting somewhere and were worried that it was getting cold!

A nice lot of outriders out as well stopping me at the roundabout and then doing the normal haring past to catch up with the convoy.
 
Ummm, I'm on my four days off at the mo so I don't know. The Met are normaly pretty self sufficient - sure it was Kent? (Maybe they were off to the theatre with Camilla???!!) :toungincheek
 
....... Aha..!! Student protests I understand!! :thumb
 
What a fantastic presentation. Well done.There's a lot of hard work gone into that. I am indifferent re the finger on the brakes stuff. The safety points matter though.:thumb
 
Awesome reading. Thanks Giles. Can anyone explicitly explain "fisting the throttle" to me? Not being facetious or dirty here, but want to make sure I get up to speed (oops, no pun meant) on what I should and shouldn't do?

I assume it means all fingers on throttle and make a fist? or is the above and a forward/close throttle movement?
Secondly, in slow traffic does anyone feather the clutch (I don't, but was wondering) on a gs 1200 and is it okay to do so, if done so? Answers appreciated.
 
Secondly, in slow traffic does anyone feather the clutch (I don't, but was wondering) on a gs 1200 and is it okay to do so, if done so? Answers appreciated.

On my RT12 I feather the clutch when practising slow riding. As long as you keep revs fairly low (I use 2 to 3k on rev counter) it should be OK. It's the high revs and slipping the clutch which kills a dry clutch quickly.
hth
\v/
 
thanks. Good to know, however, when I did my training the instructor bought a new 2nd hand bike halfway through the course as he had slipped the clutch too many times on his initial BMW trainer and didn't realise it was a dry clutch (hence it burned out). He said cost of replacement was prohibitive, so rather bought a different bike with a wet clutch. Any truth in this you reckon? It was that comment that made me wonder what damage slow speed feathering can have on a dry clutch.
 
A superb read Giles, very informative and very relevant :thumb

You quote the sentence early on....

"Learn that phrase off by heart. 'What can I see, What can't I see, What might I reasonably expect to develop'."

Spot on of course, I simplify it a little and ask myself ... How can I get hurt here?
In every developing situation I'm asking myself ... "How can I get hurt here?"

Keep up the good work :thumb

:beerjug:
 
Can anyone explicitly explain "fisting the throttle" to me?


This bit wasn't very well received!!!

By this I mean wrapping all your fingers round the throttle and not dangling fingers over the brakelever. It's a personal opinon, but it didn't go down to well. :rolleyes:
 
thanks. Good to know, however, when I did my training the instructor bought a new 2nd hand bike halfway through the course as he had slipped the clutch too many times on his initial BMW trainer and didn't realise it was a dry clutch (hence it burned out). He said cost of replacement was prohibitive, so rather bought a different bike with a wet clutch. Any truth in this you reckon? It was that comment that made me wonder what damage slow speed feathering can have on a dry clutch.


I can understand that an instructor, who might be demonstrating (and hamming up at that) slow control day after day, might well wear his clutch out, but for every day riding, even all day town riding, your clutch will be fine.

Like many things that we learn, we start off with simple building blocks, a little bit black and white, and then we hopefully progress to a more fluent way of riding. Slow control, will require a balance of throttle blipping and clutch slipping, but not all the time, every time. Whilst as a beginner you may get taught a regimented, slip clutch, back brake, rev rev rev... you should aim to take that to the next level and become more instinctive. :thumb
 
Fingers again

I don't think there is a right or wrong way,as for comfort fingers over lever...It all comes down to how we started riding...
it was mentioned that older bikes had drum brakes or early 1st generation discs.This is the evolution of our style of braking over the years so this habit is here to stay with me...
My roots are off road, from the age of 7 this is second nature and use front braking in corners when riding off road.

I have only been riding on road for little over 18 months now and when i got my GSA the first thing I did was book a bikesafe day.
It has transformed my riding on the road and have plenty more to learn.

Thanks for the write up giles:thumb2
 


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