Paralever - play at wheel

fritz · Aug 8, 2011

Help

Was about to take the 60,000m 95 PD for MOT when I noticed there is movement at rear wheel.

Took wheel off and you can still feel movemet - therefore I assume it isn't relating to wheel bearings.

Can't figure out where this wear is - only thought is that the needle rollers on the pivot pin may have play? The joints at shock and torque arm wouldn't give enough movement to feel?

Just over a year ago a Dermant shaft was put in, and I think we had to change the needle bearings as there was something screwed up with existing ones.

Could it be anything else?

Other than the 'fun' getting that ****ing allen key undone and done and the business of getting the shaft lined up to mesh with bevel it shouldn't be too bad a job...ho ***ing Ho.

I assume I can rule out the big wheel bearing jobbie as you wouldn't feel play with wheel off and holding the bevel housing? It would only show if wheel was on?

Have a trip to Morocco in few weeks so need to crack on...and bike has no MOT so going nowhere except my garage for repair

Having spoken to Motorworks is sounds like the pivot bearings - surprise sur****ingprise that works out around a ton for the bearings and the two pivots.

Be great to have some advice to save time

fritz · Aug 8, 2011

In case anyone was thinking of assisting :augie

I'm pretty damn sure it's the pivot bearings as holding the wheel top and bottom no movement, holding at sides, you can feel play (same with wheel off, ruling out wheel bearing).

Looks like I'll be seeking a big allen-key and a **** off length of scaffold tube, bugger, bugger, bugger

Beemerboff · Aug 8, 2011

The rear bearings are adjustable,in pretty much the same way the front are, but with a little less preload.

It is also possible that the pivot pins are worn and the inner race is turning on the pin- the drive side front is the first to go on the paralever.

When this happens adjusting the bearings wont remove the play.DAHIK

Motoren Israel make slightly oversize pins which will fix the problem. and they are cheaper than OEM to.

fritz · Aug 8, 2011

Beemerboff said:
The rear bearings are adjustable,in pretty much the same way the front are, but with a little less preload.

It is also possible that the pivot pins are worn and the inner race is turning on the pin- the drive side front is the first to go on the paralever.

When this happens adjusting the bearings wont remove the play.DAHIK

Motoren Israel make slightly oversize pins which will fix the problem. and they are cheaper than OEM to.

Ta mate, that sounds very interesting - I wounderd if I might be able to mess about with them and get some result.

I have gone ahead and ordered the replacement bearings and pivots as I can see where this is going

and it's such a PITA that even at £100 I'd rather replace them and do the dissassembly once (I hope

)

Just gotta get a scoket drive allen-key as that little blighter is one hard bastard

I guess what comes out can be carried as dire emergency spares.

I never had a problem in 100,000 miles on the other one, but this one is making up for it.

I'll report back

fritz · Aug 11, 2011

Seeing as I'm 'just' changing the pivot bearings and pins will I be able to leave shaft and swing-arm in place and re-align shaft onto bevel drive after removal of bevel drive?

I think in past I've always put pivot pins in while whole swing arm out :confused:

Only 'loosely' obviously, just seem to recall it's easier to get shaft vertically down casing and onto bevel first, before fitting whole thing to frame.

I think Haynes suggests I may be able to align shaft to bevel via screwdriver through pivot pin holes before pins inserted

Anyone like to comment :augie

is it as easy without taking swing arm 'out'

ta

(RIP) pastyman · Aug 11, 2011

We did Flips bike at the weekend. Stuff a wedge of cloth inside the swing arm and underneath the driveshaft to hold it into the middle of the swingarm but leave a bit hanging out. The idea being that you then fiddle the bevel box onto the driveshaft, pull the cloth out and then slide the whole lot in till the pivot bolts line up. Its a bit of a pain but it does work and is a lot quicker than taking the driveshaft off. Get a mate if you can, makes it a lot easier to line the bevel box up. :beerjug:

fritz · Aug 12, 2011

pastyman said:
Stuff a wedge of cloth inside the swing arm and underneath the driveshaft to hold it into the middle of the swingarm but leave a bit hanging out.

Nice one - ta

That sounds a good method, will try it with the screw-driver chop sticks as accompanyment. Luckily :confused:

the wife will be arround and she is deft with her small hands.

We fondly recall the hours we spent a few years ago, me oilded to me armpits, and her in her dressing gown about to go to bed. "Cound you give me a hand in the garage for a few miuntes" says me.

About an hour later we finally got the shaft/bevel interfaced

First time we did it (time before) the shaft went straight on...luck :aidan

(RIP) pastyman · Aug 12, 2011

Bugger, got a stiffy now, oiled up babe and shaft and bevel fully engaged,ooooooooooooooooooooo :censor:

Ps dont forget to pull the rag out

fritz · Aug 13, 2011

pastyman said:
Bugger, got a stiffy now, oiled up babe and shaft and bevel fully engaged,ooooooooooooooooooooo

thought you'd enjoy the double entendre

Wish me luck...

Looks like a few of us on here will be busing away at the rear end today

fritz · Aug 16, 2011

OK, all done and dusted on Saturday.

There was notchiness in bearings on removal and (perhaps) some sign of wear on the pivots, though I'm not entirely certain.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the failure as the bike has done under 2,000 miles since last re-assembly, all was done corectly and seemed completely 'right' back then.

Couple of shots for interest - not sure the show anything though - perhaps some wear on the left pivot and a few marks were the bearings have been removed previously...which leads on to the next post

fritz · Aug 16, 2011

Getting the bearings out was a sod as (as allways) there is very little to drive off on the inside to drift them out. What with the needle roller cage being nylon this means they are expremely Suseptible to damage.

After a bit of thought I was able to summon upon my 31 years of experience in (un)civil engineering and a vast collection of 'bits and pieces that will come in handy one day' to manufacture a simple bearing extractor.

I felt quite proud

Photo below, and sketch with some details of sizes.

The washer on the coach-bolt just fitted through the inside of the tunnel and avoided the end of the shaft in bevel drive. The bit of tube - I think part of an old exhaust gasket :confused:

was a little too shallow, but worked.

The whole thing extracted the bearings nice and smoothly with no damage, and would probably work on several others if a range of washers was available.

Took hardly any pressure with the spanner to ease the bearings out whole and safe :thumb2

Hopefully be helpful to anyone else doing this task.

The photo of 'puller' has the extracted bearing on the thread.

MattW · Aug 16, 2011

Nice job

Always save knackered old bearings (especially matching pairs) - I've got an ice cream tub full

The races make excellent spacers etc for just this sort of job.

Also very handy for helping hold things down for faceplate work on a lathe and as makeshift gauge pieces for marking things out on a surface plate. :thumb2

fritz · Aug 16, 2011

The new bearings were drifted in with a large socket...following an hour in the freezer

New pivots went in both sides.

pastyman said:
We did Flips bike at the weekend. Stuff a wedge of cloth inside the swing arm and underneath the driveshaft to hold it into the middle of the swingarm but leave a bit hanging out. The idea being that you then fiddle the bevel box onto the driveshaft, pull the cloth out and then slide the whole lot in till the pivot bolts line up. Its a bit of a pain but it does work and is a lot quicker than taking the driveshaft off. Get a mate if you can, makes it a lot easier to line the bevel box up.

The rag tip helped no end, made life much easier. And luckily it was the wife who helped me with shaft alignment

I fell into same trap as last time :blast

i miss-read manual and assembled with inner race on pivots...that won't work with the right one...doh :augie

take it apart again.

Inners and outer in bevel we managed to finally re-entice the female parts onto the semi-rigid male shaft

and complete the task...of course it took twice as long as first time...obviously

Thence to the ridiculous torquing on left pivot and obscure 'light-touch' on right before more tight-toquing on lock nut.

So, all done and dusted and no play as it should be.

I have no idea why the bearings failed in short time, but hope this has fixed it, lets hope it stays that way for 10's of thousands of miles :augie

Rob Farmer · Aug 16, 2011

fritz said:
Nice one - ta the wife will be arround and she is deft with her small hands.

maybe she's just used to getting something short and floppy into a tight hole :augie

I've had pivot bearings on fairly new bikes fail with in 4K but last in access of 30k once they've been replaced and torqued correctly. Strange how they don't last sometimes?

fritz · Aug 16, 2011

Rob Farmer said:
maybe she's just used to getting something short and floppy into a tight hole

Thought you'd like the double entendres

Rob Farmer said:
I've had pivot bearings on fairly new bikes fail with in 4K but last in access of 30k once they've been replaced and torqued correctly. Strange how they don't last sometimes?

I never once changed 'em in 100,000 miles on the '89 bike, even though frequently 'disturbed'. And I note they lengthened the pivots after '89...I wonder :confused:

fritz · Aug 19, 2011

PS

Forgot to say

Voyager said:
Heat it up before you try to undo it . . . . I shattered my 12mm Allen socket when I tried to undo it cold

Bob.

Top tip - POP to undo either side pivot bearing after application of heat gun (mind the gaiter though of course!)

brassmonkey001 · Mar 27, 2012

Looks like I need to replace my pivot bearings now. What is the likelihood of needing to replace the pivot pins as well as the bearings? Or is it false economy not to replace them?

pete.keys · Mar 28, 2012

brassmonkey001 said:
Looks like I need to replace my pivot bearings now. What is the likelihood of needing to replace the pivot pins as well as the bearings? Or is it false economy not to replace them?

Interested to see what anyone else says on this. In my limited experience of replacing bearings on a couple of bikes, the pivot pins seamed quite ok, and it was the actual bearing that were were worn

MattW · Mar 28, 2012

I'd say its unlikely that you'll have to replace the pivot pins. Like any shaft running in a bearing, under normal circumstances they aren't a wearing part.

I had to replace one of my paralever pivot pins because the bearing had locked up and was spinning on the shaft, galling and wearing it, but I've not heard of this before. The other one (the titanium one), I had to replace because it had cracked around the flange. Again, I've never heard of this happening before (I must be jinxed

).

If they don't look like this, then don't replace them:

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_IDpW2PXmpLymykdWUN0PtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZrvOUece7kE/ScfFmLwwBvI/AAAAAAAABhc/T5TItRwd1n4/s800/IMG_4352.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/und9WHfa013kBdJx90CVoNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-07rIc2N9oaM/ScfFWDxp2WI/AAAAAAAABhU/kFvumQLXV60/s800/IMG_4363.JPG" height="600" width="800" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/a8-FQRk_aADoc-OHJF_FONMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-n9_6_3n-8vU/SfGF8ZQvG6I/AAAAAAAABos/c-CgI-psuDY/s800/pin1.jpg" height="600" width="800" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/DXogJpBp9W2-jbz3mD72z9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GPUufHtAR-s/SfGGJPp9aWI/AAAAAAAABpE/gbMb6k97OmI/s800/pin4.jpg" height="600" width="800" /></a>

brassmonkey001 · Mar 28, 2012

I've taken the chance and not ordered the pins.
Thinking about it, the bearings shouldn't spin on them anyway, the bearings are only to allow the see-saw movement between the bevel box and the swingarm. I'm not sure what would cause that damage to the pins unless the bearings actually seized solid and rotated on the pins with the movement. :nenau

Paralever - play at wheel

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