Sluggish starting? Might not be the battery ...

That was the the first sign of issues for me. It would spin up happily first thing in the morning; stall it in traffic hot and would be very reluctant to turn over.

Looks like a job for next weekend, thanks for the stripdown pictures, I'll try spouts trick with the 21mm socket when removing the brush holder. :thumb2
 
I used some small zip ties to hold the brushes back just snip them off when the carrier is in place.


Sent somehow.
 
Starter stripped, gears were dry, commutator needed a quick scrub with scotchbrite, washed out the carbon dust with brake cleaner. Used a 22mm socket as its OD was perfect for retaining the brush gear.

All back together in about 40 minutes and the bike starts much less noisily than before.

Thanks for the tips. :thumb2
 
Hmmm, after following the good advice in the other recent thread on starter motors I removed and stripped mine today using the tips in here. Worse than ever:blast Two possible things I did wrong: Firstly I dropped the gear box onto the floor when I had all the gubbins out. Unlikley to be the cause I think. Plus I did the 22mm trick (awesome) except when I was putting the long bolts back one seemed tight so I lifted everything to have a quick check and lifted the brushes too high and out they popped. The thin cable tie trick also works, but what a faff, and I reckon the second thing I did wrong was disturbing all the brushes too much and damaging the face/profile of them. It turns but very very slowly.

The battery is also on charge just in case, but if not new brushes on order tomorrow.
 
Well i've just spen a very cold couiple of hours looking at mine..

Didnt remove the starter but pulled the +Ve side from the solenoid,

cleaned & dielectric greased the small spade connector,

stripped cleaned & greased & replaced the old copper nut with a large flanged

version as well as the large +Ve connector.

No difference in its cold start routine, slow wheeze then sparks into life.

I let it run whilst i cleared everything away, turned it off and cleaned the mitts ..

Went back out turned the key, pressed the starter button, and its a non start :(

same old groan then click .. tried a couple more times, but its not going to turn over...

Bollocks, looks like it motor out and a new brush pack ( thats assuming its a brush pack...)

Do I gamble on a brush pack and order it now (where do you get them from ? its a Valeo starter ),

or wait till I've got it out and had a look see?

That said, it looks like its a convoluted wiggle to get it it out (r1200gs)

Mart
 
Well i've just spen a very cold couiple of hours looking at mine..

Didnt remove the starter but pulled the +Ve side from the solenoid,

cleaned & dielectric greased the small spade connector,

stripped cleaned & greased & replaced the old copper nut with a large flanged

version as well as the large +Ve connector.

No difference in its cold start routine, slow wheeze then sparks into life.

I let it run whilst i cleared everything away, turned it off and cleaned the mitts ..

Went back out turned the key, pressed the starter button, and its a non start :(

same old groan then click .. tried a couple more times, but its not going to turn over...

Bollocks, looks like it motor out and a new brush pack ( thats assuming its a brush pack...)

Do I gamble on a brush pack and order it now (where do you get them from ? its a Valeo starter ),

or wait till I've got it out and had a look see?

That said, it looks like its a convoluted wiggle to get it it out (r1200gs)

Mart


My money is on your battery being on it's way out...if it can't manage two starts with that interval (have you had the starter out and given it a once over?)
 
Well i've just spen a very cold couiple of hours looking at mine..

Didnt remove the starter but pulled the +Ve side from the solenoid,

cleaned & dielectric greased the small spade connector,

stripped cleaned & greased & replaced the old copper nut with a large flanged

version as well as the large +Ve connector.

No difference in its cold start routine, slow wheeze then sparks into life.

I let it run whilst i cleared everything away, turned it off and cleaned the mitts ..

Went back out turned the key, pressed the starter button, and its a non start :(

same old groan then click .. tried a couple more times, but its not going to turn over...

Bollocks, looks like it motor out and a new brush pack ( thats assuming its a brush pack...)

Do I gamble on a brush pack and order it now (where do you get them from ? its a Valeo starter ),

or wait till I've got it out and had a look see?

That said, it looks like its a convoluted wiggle to get it it out (r1200gs)

Mart

This is the part I ordered a few moments ago as I decided to replace the brushes anyway. http://ukstartermotors.co.uk/brush-...-citroen-mini-peugeot-audi-seat-skoda-vw.html This is for a Bosch starter, not sure about a Valeo. My battery seems to have discharged over the day (may have left the ignition on for a while) as when I checked it after a couple of hours the starter spun up like a good un. But as the brushes are so easy to replace I thought I would do it anyway.

Its a real easy job, but do remove or displace the exhaust flappy valve motor - 1 bolt - it makes access much easier. The "hidden" starter mounting bolt is easy enough with a wobble extension bar. I Used two together to make a total length about 14inches. Once undone move the starter to the rear (mine took a few knocks to get it off its mounting pegs) until its clear and then out forwards.

Dismantling the starter is easy enough as per pics in the OP as long as everything comes undone OK, but once the brushes pop out its like trying to put a wet octopus into a slippery bag to get them back. I am hoping to have a nice fast whirry starter in a few days time :D
 
Battery is brand new ;)

Yes money is now on starter :( will whip it out and apart tomorrow night and see if the brush packs are the same...

If not, its the bay lol

Mart
 
I used small cable ties to hold the brushes back but Pukmeistet says a 22mm socket is easier.


Sent somehow.
 
Wait till you see my method :)

you'll be on your knees weeping ;)


Starter out, stripped, and in the process of rebuilding

Bendix and gear pack done, just onto commutator, field coils and connections

lots of info to update later :)

Mart
 
OK, As promised ...

Stripped the Starter out of the bike,

Went quite well, I have wobble extensions, so they give just enough movement to deal with the back fixing ;)

I had more trouble getting the motor out of the frame than i did with the bolt lol :)

Observation 1

Starter is a Valeo unit ...

According to the OEM catalogue , the Valeo unit wasn't fitted to pre MY08 bikes.

Up to MY08 was a Bosch unit

Hmm makes me wonder did they change the starter in an attempt to cure the hot start issue??

OK unit out and on the bench,
<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Bendix%20business%20end.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Bendix%20business%20end.jpg" border="0" alt="Business end bendix pre strip photo Bendix business end.jpg"/></a>

Hmm not looking to hot i have to say

Business end & bendix

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Bendix%20business%20end.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Bendix%20business%20end.jpg" border="0" alt="Business end bendix pre strip photo Bendix business end.jpg"/></a>

Pretty grimey, and the bendix looks poor :(

Bendix - stripped out

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Bendix%20stripped.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Bendix%20stripped.jpg" border="0" alt="Bendix stripped photo Bendix stripped.jpg"/></a>

The one way clutch works, but i's still a bit stiff to turn by hand

Gearbox original grease

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Gearbox%20pre%20strip.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Gearbox%20pre%20strip.jpg" border="0" alt="Gearbox - original grease photo Gearbox pre strip.jpg"/></a>

Looks well worn in, need to get shot of that lot then !

Field coils
<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Field%20colis.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Field%20colis.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Field colis.jpg"/></a>

They dont look to hot either!

Gearbox degreased ...
<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Gearbox%20degreased.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Gearbox%20degreased.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Gearbox degreased.jpg"/></a>

Now to rebuild

Gearbox with fresh moly


<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Gearbox%20moly%20packed.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Gearbox%20moly%20packed.jpg" border="0" alt="Gears moly greased photo Gearbox moly packed.jpg"/></a>

Bendix cleaned, lubed, and reassembled

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Bendix%20reworked.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Bendix%20reworked.jpg" border="0" alt="Bendix cleaned & reassembled photo Bendix reworked.jpg"/></a>

Fitting the brush pack 1

Be quick ;)

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Fitting%20brush%20pack%201.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Fitting%20brush%20pack%201.jpg" border="0" alt="Fitting brushpack 1 photo Fitting brush pack 1.jpg"/></a>

Done .. took seconds, no special tools needed :)


I'll show you why & how

Valeo Commutator 1

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Communtator%20cleaned.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Communtator%20cleaned.jpg" border="0" alt="Communator photo Communtator cleaned.jpg"/></a>

Commutator 2

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Fitting%20brush%20pack%202.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Fitting%20brush%20pack%202.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Fitting brush pack 2.jpg"/></a>

Got to say its a clever way of doing things ....

Be warned, if you split the brush pack, it needs a nack to get it back together ... not to difficult though


All done

<a href="http://s16.photobucket.com/user/mart360/media/Rebuilt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/mart360/Rebuilt.jpg" border="0" alt="Finished photo Rebuilt.jpg"/></a>


So battery is on charge,

Will refit and hava a go tommorow morning ...

I fould a place in poland that did the brush pack. £20 odd delivered ... I have one ordered just in case.

Of note the starter 9D6G is used in multiple applications

AUDI A3 1.4 TFSi, A3 1.6, A3 1.6 FSi, A3 1.6 FSi Sportback, A3 1.6 Sportback, A3 1.8 TFSi, A3 1.8 TFSi Quattro, A3 1.8 TFSi Sportback, A3 2.0 FSi, A3 2.0 FSi Sportback, A3 2.0 TFSi, A3 2.0 TFSi Quattro, A3 2.0 TFSi Sportback, A3 2.0 TFSi Sportback Quattro, S3 2.0 TFSi Quattro, TT 1.8 TFSi, TT 2.0 TFSi, TT 2.0 TFSi Quattro, TT 2.5 TFSi Quattro
SEAT Altea 1.4, Altea 1.4 16V, Altea 1.4 TSi, Altea 1.6, Altea 1.6 Multifuel, Altea 1.6 XL, Altea 1.8 TFSi, Altea 1.8 TFSi XL, Altea 2.0 FSi, Altea 2.0 FSi XL, Cordoba 1.2 12V, Cordoba 1.4 16V, Cordoba 1.6, Cordoba 1.6 16V, Cordoba 2.0, Ibiza 1.2, Ibiza 1.2 12V, Ibiza 1.4, Ibiza 1.4 16V, Ibiza 1.6, Ibiza 1.6 16V, Ibiza 1.6 Sports Coupe, Ibiza 1.8 Turbo Cupra R, Ibiza 2.0, Leon 1.4 16V, Leon 1.6, Leon 1.6 16V, Leon 1.8 TSi, Leon 2.0 FSi, Toledo 1.6, Toledo 1.8 TFSi, Toledo 2.0 FSi
SKODA Fabia 1.2, Fabia 1.2 Pralails, Fabia 1.4, Fabia 1.4 16V, Fabia 1.6, Octavia 1.4, Octavia 1.4 TSI, Octavia 1.6, Octavia 1.6 FSi, Octavia 1.8 TSi, Octavia 2.0 FSi, Octavia 2.0 FSi 4x4, Octavia 2.0 RS, Roomster 1.2, Roomster 1.4, Roomster 1.4 TDi, Superb 1.4 TSI, Superb 1.8 TSI
VOLKSWAGEN EOS Eos 1.4 TSi, EOS 2.0 FSi, EOS 2.0 TFSi, Golf IV 1.6 FSi, Golf V 1.4, Golf V 1.4 16V, Golf V 1.4 16V Plus, Golf V 1.4 FSi, Golf V 1.4 FSi Plus, Golf V 1.4 TSI, Golf V 1.4 TSI Plus, Golf V 1.6, Golf V 1.6 FSi, Golf V 1.6 Plus, Golf V 1.6 Plus Multifuel, Golf V 2.0, Golf V 2.0 FSi, Golf V 2.0 FSi 4 Motion, Golf V 2.0 FSi Plus, Golf V 2.0 GTi, Golf VI 1.4, Golf VI 1.4 TSI, Golf VI 1.6, Golf VI 1.6 BiFuel, Golf VI 2.0 TSi, Jetta 1.6, Jetta 1.6 FSi, Jetta 2.0 FSi, Jetta 2.0 TFSi, Jetta 2.5, Multivan 2.0, New Beetle 2.5 Turbo, Passat 1.4 TSI, Passat 1.4 TSi EcoFuel, Passat 1.6 FSi, Passat 1.8 TSI, Passat 2.0 FSi, Passat 2.0 FSi 4 Motion, Passat 2.0 TFSi, Passat 2.0 TSi CC, Polo 1.2, Polo 1.4, Polo 1.4 16V, Polo 1.6 16V, Polo 1.8 GTi, Polo 1.8 GTi Cup Edition, Scirocco 1.4 TSi, Tiguan 1.4 TSi, Tiguan 2.0TFSi, Touran 1.4 TSi EcoFuel, Touran 1.6, Touran 1.6 FSi, Touran 2.0 FSi


So if you need one to test, the above units use the same brush pack.

Will let you know how i get on it the morning


M art
 
Mine had the axial commutator.
The bendix gear looks normal. It runs dry so will always be polished.
The epicyclic gears look grubby but a good clean and grease will sort that out. What state are the brushes and spring in?


Sent somehow.
 
Brushes and springs were good, looking at each brush, it has a Va mark half way down each side,

I'm guessing these are wear indicators... I have a new brush pack on order anyway ;)

so put it all back in this morning, (Snow and all!!) Freshly charged battery, and it shot over and fired straight up :), so far so good ..

Let it run for 20 mins to warm up, (fitted my low seat while i was waiting ) great its foot flat on floor now :)

Turned it off, dropped it off the centre stand and waited a couple minutes... pressed the button, and it turned over and fired up ..

Brilliant... turned it off again to check. NOPE!!! whir click whir nothing...

I then ran a +Ve feed direct from the battery to the starter and pressed the button ... still the same whir click nothing

I then pulled out the Jump battery and hooked that up. gave it a couple of seconds, and tried again ... it was slow but managed to start it ...

So looks like i'm back to square one... bugger!!!!

Only thing i can think of now, to totally eliminate the starter is to put in the new brush pack, then depending on the outcome borrow another

known good starter to try.

As a long shot, Wouldnt be the starter relay would it??

Mart
 
I suspect that these engines compression gets much higher once hot, and that because there are two opposed pistons, if the crank stops at a certain position then trying to restart against hot compression is a major struggle regardless of whether valeo or bosch starters are involved.

Since a starter strip and clean, mine still has the odd hot restart 'cough' where it really strains to get spinning.
 
I suspect that these engines compression gets much higher once hot, and that because there are two opposed pistons, if the crank stops at a certain position then trying to restart against hot compression is a major struggle regardless of whether valeo or bosch starters are involved.

Since a starter strip and clean, mine still has the odd hot restart 'cough' where it really strains to get spinning.

But at least yours fires up.... Mines just a big paperweight at the mo lol


Mart
 
There's certainly something about hot running and starting on these bikes. In heavy traffic on hot days mine gets hotter and hotter, the oil temp gauge creeps up towards the top and it soon starts running very badly, struggles to tick over and needs a good handful to keep it moving otherwise it stalls. When it stalls it really struggles to spin over enough to re-start and I mean like panic inducing when you are in lane 3 and the rest of the traffic is pulling away and you are sat there with an impatient queue behind you while your starter solenoid is just rattling away or the engine is just about turned over. So much so I now tend to pull over in heavy traffic to allow the engine to cool if the oil temp gauge gets towards the upper end of normal.
 
Have you tried bypassing the original earth with a jump lead off the negative battery post direct to the engine?
 
Mine starts fine when hot though sometimes coughs back. On the rare occasions I've had ordinary petrol it's been harder to start but always does fire up.


Sent somehow.
 


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