I have my first observed ride/assessment on Sunday

He told me not to use the gearbox to slow down, but to use the brakes, he justified this by saying showing a brake light tells a following vehicle that i'm slowing down. He also said brakes were cheaper than gearboxes. This seemed totally alian to me,but assumed this is the way they teach today.:nenau

Sounds like maybe you didn't have the best observer. I've contacted my local lot for a free assessment ride with a view to doing the SFL course if things work out. Having done the car equivalent I was taught to use acceleration sense where possible to reduce my speed before a hazard providing I could do it in the gear I was in. If I couldn't then I'd use the brakes then choose the gear to match my speed for the hazard so I'll be interested to see what Giles has to say on this ahead of my little trip in case it's different for bikes as they have sequential gearboxes.:beerjug:
 
That's really strange - every advanced rider I've ever spoken to has advocated flexible gears and engine braking to control speed - I've always tried to keep brake usage to an absolute minimum. I even got a gentle chiding from my Plod observer on my bikesafe ride for doing a 'comfort dab' on the back brake as I went into a left hander slightly too quick for my liking!

Those were my thoughts too, however perhaps i'm a just dinosaur.......:blast
 
"Gears to go. Brakes to slow." And to clarify, this is from a former chief examiner. It makes sense to me ...

Remember the system... I. P. S. G. A.
I heard a rumour that "the Examiner does not like to see candidates using the brakes" This is not true. There is a time and place for braking and the time and place is at "S" in the system, if the speed reduction required cannot be achieved by deceleration alone in the time and distance available to the rider.

Generally good acceleration sense negates the use of brakes for say the approach to a 30 mph limit, but depending on the gear we are in, the time/distance available AND the available engine braking the machine has, we might have to use the brakes.
I would far rather see the system applied correctly and the brakes used on the approach to hazards (even though acceleration sense could have been better), than pick up the fact that gears were being deliberately used to slow the machine... unless we are in treacherous conditions and I would not be conducting a test if conditions were such that we required to use only engine braking.
 
Hard at work at the mo and very long days! I'll write war and peace soon ... :D
 
I think the key to this is the difference between using acceleration sense and slamming it into gear to slow down without showing a brake light. If you change down to correctly match the speed of the bike and then use the engine braking which that gear provides to slow down, it is acceleration sense, rather than actually using the gears as a brake. It can be a fine line and this is why it is a common debate amongst observers (and examiners).

My view is that it is like everything else to do with advanced riding, there is no fixed rule and you have to do what is appropriate for each individual circumstance. For example if i am on a national speed limit road with a long straight and a 30 limit at the end, I will generally keep the speed on to a suitable point and then brake gently for the limit. I ride an 800GS which doesn't have anywhere near the engine braking of the 1200, so this approach avoids starting to slow down a ridiculous distance from the limit change. However if there is some other hazard to deal with on the approach to the limit I would deal with them both together, which could change my approach e.g. If there is a parked vehicle just before the limit change, I would slow using acceleration sense to make sure I pass it safely. This reduction in speed would then probably be enough to slow to the limit without braking.

An examiner will want to see you ride appropriately to the conditions, taking into account the road and weather conditions and the characteristics of your bike. If you are using gears to slow to avoid showing a brake light, when brakes would have been more appropriate, it will be obvious that is what you are doing and you may lose marks for gears/brakes/vehicle sympathy, or all 3 if the examiner is having a bad day :D
 
I've just done my 3yr retest (RoSPA), and at the debrief, the examiner mentioned that during the open road part, he was happy that he could see me braking before the bend, but not in the bend. When making 'progress' the brakes and gears are used in sync with each other to negotiate the hazard, ie, correct gear for your speed and the next part of the ride.
 
My thoughts are that changing down to slow for a hazard is wrong. Slowing in the gear you're in, then when the speed is right taking a lower gear is acceleration sense.
Nothing at all wrong with braking, provided its necessary and part of a plan. And sometimes, by 'eck is it necessary!
 
One guy on test made a lovely overtake past a couple of cars but to fit in between two cars, for which there was a reasonable gap, he revved his bike, smacked it down a gear and shut the throttle, to ease in to the gap without showing a brake light :eek:

Me ... "Do you know that the gear you smacked it down in to was the gear you should have been in before the overtake"

Him ... "Bugger, I didn't think you would have seen that"

Me ... "I could bloody hear it ne'er mind see it"

He failed for a variety of reasons :D

:beerjug:
 
Cheers,
Either celebrate with a drink or drown my sorrows, time will tell.

Hey Bungle ... pass or fail you'll be a better, wiser rider. Pass or fail we'll celebrate :thumby:

:beerjug:
 
Cheers, I would be interested in your comments.........)


Well .... It's all been said by the others and they're absolutely spot on!


But as you're shit Johno, and probably need telling more than once .... here's my input :D


Biking styles change over the decades and back in the 80's when I was doing my RoSPA and IAM stuff (long before I joined the job) I distinctly remember a style of 'Ooooo ... he's a lovely rider - you never see him brake'. It was all the talk at the cafe in the ride outs; 'Yeah, your bike has more engine compression than mine that's why I had to brake for that bend ..' and so on. It got so bad that people were altering their rear brake plunger switches so they could have a crafty stab of the rear without anybody noticing!

Well, I was a product of that, and it ultimately caused me to crash many years ago in Belgium (between Spa and Malmedy) on one of those ever decreasing Top Gear hammerhead bends. I was in front, I had some riders behind me, I recognised that I was sailing into a limit point quite quickly, but rather than 'show a brake light' (Oooo no) I tried to scrub it off on the gear box. I couldn't get round the corner and binned it!! How utterly ridiculous!!

Roll on to my Police bike courses a few years later ......

My instructor was a top top rider. One of those riders you put on a pedestal as a 'Riding God'!! Come the end of day two and I'm brumm .... brumm ... brumm .... on the gears into a sharp corner, (then have to brake) as my instructor whistles past me with smoke coming out his ears. He wildly gesticulates at me to do a u turn, and I follow him back 3/4 of a mile, do another u turn, and then we stop. The bloke looks like he's going to explode :D


'Giles, what the fuck can you see down there?'

'Errrr ... a sharp bend sign, some slows written on the road and a sharp deviation sign'

'Then fucking get up to it and brake FFS!!!! Your poncey ... poncey IAM style is driving me fucking nuts, just get on with it and stop fucking pouncing about'

"Yes Gary ... sorry Gary .. '

So I was there! Very much a product of that time, and I had to pretty much turn my riding completely around and work really hard to get away from that mindset of slowing the bike down on the gear box.


Roll on to 2016.

So, is the comment 'He's a lovely rider, he never shows a brake light' dangerous, or is it still valid? (Sorry magnet ... that could be She's a lovely rider too ... !), Well yes, it's valid because a good rider has really good acceleration sense and marries what he sees (scanning, limit points, council signs) with his right hand. Can a good rider go for what seems like miles and miles (like 20 or 30!) without braking? Yes - I can commute my 30 miles to work and tell you the four occasions where I've had to brake (and why) in my diesel 1.6 407 estate!

So what's the difference between acceleration sense and slowing down on the gear box? The answer to that is how good your system is and whether you're a systemised rider at all.

Lets look at S.G.A. (speed gear accelerate), and put you in a classic scenario but in a car;

The car in front of you indicates left, there's a side road coming up in 250 metres, and you're in fourth gear. You come off the gas straight away, let that gap between you and the car in front start to widen, the car in front slows and starts to make his turn. He's down to 10mph, he makes his turn and all you've done, is come off the gas. As he turns and gets out your way, you take that lower gear with a little bit of raised revs to slide it in smoothly and you accelerate away. So thats Speed, Gear, Accelerate. Now If, you'd have gone for that lower gear the minute he started indicating, slowed and then accelerated away you'd be guilty of Gear, Speed, Accelerate, which is technically out of system.
(The sort of joyful snigger you'd get from an instructor on a car course would be when you take that gear just two seconds too early - the car turning left, almost out your way, had to abruptly stop for some reason and it's still got it's backside sticking out in the road, you peaked too soon, took your gear, but now you have to brake much to the chortling of all your passengers. Oh how we laughed .... ).

Take the same scenario; the car indicates left. Maybe this time you're closer to him, or he indicates really late. You recognise you're not going to do it just on acceleration sense and you need to brake - so it's off the gas and brakes. Brake ... brake ... brake .... maybe down to 10 mph and still in fourth (if your diesel motor will let you!). He turns, (this time you make sure he's completely out the way), you come off the brakes, take your second (raised revs) and accelerate away. (Cue the argument about overlapping brakes and gears!). Again, you've systematically gone Speed (brakes this time), Gear, Accelerate.

So, easy peasy and Janet and John right?? My missus goes 4,3,2 ....1 to a give way junction :blast She has no concept of the fact that she could just brake and then go 4 .... to whatever gear she needs at the junction. Of all the run of the mill, perfectly normal drivers I sit with as a passenger, half of them would probably incorrectly take gears as they start to slow down.


So how does all that fit in with your sequential gear box on your bike where to get to 2nd, you've got to go via 5 ..4 ..3 etc

Well, there are a thousand shades of grey, and we could talk at length about braking and changing, block changing, sustained revs, blipping the gas .... but the bottom line is the same as the car scenario; Your first port of call for loosing speed is coming off the gas, and if your brain tells you that 'off the gas' is not enough and that you need to loose more speed before that bend, or that car in front thats turning left, then you brake! The answer to 'off the gas is not enough' is NOT, well then take another gear.

The grey area as Magnet describes (it's not grey at all, it just appears as if it's all happening on the gears) are those scenarios where you do arrive at a hazard in say second, but you've got there without any brakes and you've come down the gears. That scenario might be something like a 300m motorway slip off up to a roundabout. Do I want to come off the motorway in 6th as I slide between the traffic for my exit? Well I might .... but there again I might take a 5th just to tighten the bike up a bit and make it more responsive as I negotiate my exit. Have I gone to 5th to slow the bike down? No. Have I done it give me a more responsive gear as I make my exit? Yes, and that's a good thing. As I'm on my slip I'm off the gas, I have a plan to stay off the gas all the way up to somewhere near the roundabout where my view will develop, but on the slip there's a car in lane one and I'm getting the vibes that it might want to change lanes. My speed has dropped and I take a gear (that marries that speed) to make the bike responsive for the car in lane one. Have I done it to slow down? No, I've put it in a responsive gear for that lower speed and that hazard. As I approach the roundabout the view opens, I could brake and come to a stop If I want, but happy days .... there's nobody on the roundabout. I take a third for an appropriate gear for the speed I'm doing and then accelerate off the slip and away.

So I've done the whole thing with no brakes, but it's still systemised.


So System Johno, System!! It'll keep you out of trouble and will always see you in the right place, at the right speed and at the right gear if you stick to it.

I still see a lot of 'don't show a brake light' stuff from the punters on the rapid courses, and it's fair to say that I still see a fair few from RoSPA and IAM clubs.

Understand the clear distinction between lovely acceleration sense and judging pace in your throttle, and the very bad habit of trying to deliberately slow the bike down on the gear box.

:beer jug:


* Of course another debate would be a very systemised young driver (my kids that I'm teaching!!) who have never driven on Ice or snow before ....
 
Thanks Giles, you clearly have the patience of a Saint to put that down in print ..... something I lost not long after I was at your tender age :rob

Well said and agree :thumby:

:beerjug:
 
I'm going to need the patience of a saint if Johno ends up in front of me on JB's saturday ride out ..... :D
 
Thanks for taking the time Giles to explain all that.Like I said, I may be a dinosaur:blast although I don't have any problem scrubbing off speed with the brakes and certainly wouldn't be dropping down 2/3 gears to get to the right speed.I would have thought though to ride smoothly you shouldn't be jamming on the brakes as you approach every bend,surely that just means you've consistantly got your acceleration sense wrong.:nenau


If you are behind me on JB's ride out, bring your notebook, you can write me out a report when we finish:thumb :D
 
Excellent stuff Giles. Can I suggest that you copy that response into the "Thin Black Line" section? Seems a shame not to, given the time and effort you've put in.
 
Excellent stuff Giles. Can I suggest that you copy that response into the "Thin Black Line" section? Seems a shame not to, given the time and effort you've put in.


:thumb2
 


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