Ardennes, Vosges, Black Forest, Stelvio, Italian Lakes

+1 on Stelvio comment, the Bormio side is better - but neither are a good "ride" as such, the main attraction is ticking it off your "Biking Roads to ride" list. The views from the top are the best bit IMO, how you get there and back is all much of a muchness for me, the Umbrail is a very decent way back down.

The Splugen seems to be suffering from "Improvements", I last rode it in 2010 and really enjoyed the rugged nature of it, the Italians appear to be trying to make it far more accessible and seem to be ruining it in the process, and encouraging more tin boxes to drive up it. However it is still a bit of a faff and unlikely to be overly popular with your pillion - except maybe the flat bit at the top by the lake.

You have a few options here, you could do all of the Stelvio (And having come up the "nasty" ramp the Bormio side will be a joy) from Bormio there are many options, here is a couple of ideas:

1. Drop down the West ramp of the Stelvio and on to Tirano, then go back up the Bernina pass to St Moritz, onto the Maloja pass to Chiavenna and on to Como.

2. After the Stelvio take the Gavia Pass (SP29 heading South) - this is narrow and a bit rugged, but also extremely scenic, from here you would probably have no option but to run along the SS39 as time will be too short to go back up the Bernina and over the Maloja, but the Gavia is well worth the effort, despite being rugged and bumpy the Mrs liked it when she was on the back - but not so much when doing the hairpins at the Southern end on her own bike this year.

Option 1 = Mainly smooth and easy riding

Option 2 = A few more bumps, maybe worth it for the Gavia - but the Bernina is a right rollocking ride.
 
Simon W & Rasher,

Thank you very much! That's a hell of a reply! :thumb

In response to both your posts I can say that I have no choice on where to start the route from as we'll be staying in Prato allo Stelvio the night before doing the pass. Therefore I have to start from there. Although I don't mind riding down to Bormio and take the better route from there. In terms of destination I have to get to Como lake (Tremezzina) by dinner time.

My girlfriend is not bothered by the type of road. She enjoys travelling on a motorbike so much that any road is good for her. I'm used to Italian bumpy roads (Passo dell'Agnello, Colle della Lombarda, etc.) and as long as there is a good scenery to admire I'm fine with them.

I can see that the Gavia wasn't mentioned before and at the moment what I was considering was three options (posted by one of you two earlier):
1. Julier Pass
2. Albula Pass
3. Fluella Pass
I can see that the Fluella takes at least a couple of hours longer than the other two. But if you reckon it is really worth it I'll leave the hotel at 7am that morning and just do it. Otherwise I might do one of the other two, but I'm not sure I'd regret not having done the Fluella, which would probably happen :confused:;)

It seems that I cannot avoid doing the Splugen as it is the faster way to get to Como - it goes straight down. But as I said already, I don't mind bumpy/tight roads.

Rasher,
I've checked your itinerary #1 but Tirano is a bit too far from Prato Stelvio and doing the Bernina Pass would not allow me to do any of the passes in the option 1, 2 & 3 above, which would probably be a shame. Also, if I do Tirano > Bernina > Maloja > Chiavenna > Como the ride would be very short (only approx. 4.5 hrs). Itinerary #2 is similar but with the Stelvio as a starting point.

If you guys think that option 3 (Fluella) is the one to go I'd probably stretch a bit more and with the help of a very early wake up call I'll go for that one.

I had an idea - hopefully a good one. If I were to stretch a bit the day before, when I do the Timmelsjoch from Chur, I could stop at either Bormio or Livigno, which would allow me to respectively save ±1hr or ±2hrs the morning after as both locations or on my way to Stelvio. That would mean I could do the Fluella Pass saving ±2hrs. What do you think?
 
NB: and the only reason why I'm not paying the subscription is because I'm leaving the country in 3 months time and it'd be a waste of money to do so.

You've certainly worked hard getting your money's worth, over the year and a half you've been here.

Enjoy your holiday, wherever and however you go.
 
If you want to be in Como by lunch time surely the 4.5 hour trip is ideal?

The fluella / Splugen route you posted is 6 hours excluding stops so even if you ride for 6 hours without a break you need to be away at around 7am, when two up we did not like doing much more than 1.5 hours between stops so I would allow 7.5 hours as a minimum for this trip, or 8 hours if a lunch stop is to be had.

You have plenty of options, all are good for scenery and riding, just decide what is most important to you, doing the stelvio properly or taking in Julier and fluella, plus consider if you really can do a 6 hour ride before lunch bearing in mind you will be leaving the hotel before brekky even on a zero stop strategy.
 
If you want to be in Como by lunch time surely the 4.5 hour trip is ideal?

The fluella / Splugen route you posted is 6 hours excluding stops so even if you ride for 6 hours without a break you need to be away at around 7am, when two up we did not like doing much more than 1.5 hours between stops so I would allow 7.5 hours as a minimum for this trip, or 8 hours if a lunch stop is to be had.

You have plenty of options, all are good for scenery and riding, just decide what is most important to you, doing the stelvio properly or taking in Julier and fluella, plus consider if you really can do a 6 hour ride before lunch bearing in mind you will be leaving the hotel before brekky even on a zero stop strategy.

I need to be in Como for dinner, not for lunch.

What I've worked out is that if the day before I add 1.5hr to my ride from Chur to Stelvio thru the Timmelsjoch, I can stop for that night in Livigno instead of Prato Stelvio and that would save me almost 2 hrs the morning after. If I do that I'll be able to do the Fluella (as per the route you posted) with an overall journey of ±7.5 hrs. I can leave Livigno very early in the morning and have a good lunch break somewhere up in the Alps :D

I've done some 'zero stop strategy' in my life and I didn't really like it.
 
Can I suggest you have a "plan B" because if the weather is bad you won't want to be doing most of those passes unless you have no choice - and I speak from experience.

The weather has a habit of changing very quickly in the mountains too.
 
Can I suggest you have a "plan B" because if the weather is bad you won't want to be doing most of those passes unless you have no choice - and I speak from experience.

The weather has a habit of changing very quickly in the mountains too.

At the moment my plan B is to head straight down to Como and enjoy a (hopefully sunny) day at the lake. But I really hope the weather will have a bit of mercy... :confused:
 
I would go for a stop in Livigno, plenty of choice of where to go to eat and drink, I would recommend the "1816 Brewery" as a good fun place to go for a meal and a few beers, several Hotels right next to it to choose from. Hotel La Montanina is nice and has a great outside bar at one end of the Hotel and a nightclub - probably best avoided if you want an early start.
 
I would go for a stop in Livigno, plenty of choice of where to go to eat and drink, I would recommend the "1816 Brewery" as a good fun place to go for a meal and a few beers, several Hotels right next to it to choose from. Hotel La Montanina is nice and has a great outside bar at one end of the Hotel and a nightclub - probably best avoided if you want an early start.

Hey Rasher,

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep the 1816 Brewery in mind. Re: the accommodation, I've booked at the Bio Hotel Villa Cecilia. It was one of the few places left that could give me free cancellation until 48hrs before the arrival (you never know). And I can see it's only 3mins away from the 1816 Brewery :thumb

I'll definitely avoid the nightclub this time :D

What do you think about my plan? If I can get to Livigno the night before the ride you suggested doing the Fluella Pass should be doable in one day. Correct?
 
Of course, just assume 30mph average speed (excluding stops) for any mountain route and you won't be far out, then just add in your preferred stop time (15 min stopped for every hour moving + an extra 30-45 mins for lunch is a formula that is pretty much spot on for us)

Typically on a days ride there is about 2 hours of stops, so we like to ride for 5-6 hours to keep the whole day at a fairly easy 7-8 hours, which is 150 - 180 miles in the mountains.
 
Of course, just assume 30mph average speed (excluding stops) for any mountain route and you won't be far out, then just add in your preferred stop time (15 min stopped for every hour moving + an extra 30-45 mins for lunch is a formula that is pretty much spot on for us)

Typically on a days ride there is about 2 hours of stops, so we like to ride for 5-6 hours to keep the whole day at a fairly easy 7-8 hours, which is 150 - 180 miles in the mountains.

It does make sense :thumb2

Plan A at the moment is follow your advice: sleep in Livigno at the end of the long day ride thru the Timmelsjoch and do the Fluella Pass ;)

Which type of gps do you normally use? Google Maps on your smartphone or something different?

I generally use my iPhone and never had issues but recently I'm having problems when using a saved map. Basically when I click on "go" it just doesn't recognise the route and make me start from scracth :blast

I've also downloaded Rever, which I really recommend for motorbike rides. The only downside is that it doesn't have the audio guide, so you end up constantly looking at the screen :confused:
 
Which Option?

Rasher,

A quick advice. Have you ever done this route

Chur to Livigno Thru Timmelsjoch

I was wondering whether instead of going north, east and then south to get to the Timmelsjoch I should instead do something like this

Chur to to Livigno thru Timmelsjoch and part of Fluella (Albula?)

I'd need to do part of the same route twice but if the north bit shown in the first link is not worth riding there is no point in me spending time to go up there just to reach the Timmelsjoch, which in the second option I could do in both ways as I'll have to go back to Livigno. That'd also allow me to do part of the Fluella Pass (I think the bit shown in the second link is the Albula) and not have to do it again the second day.

What do you think?
 
That is not the Albula, I think you have a list of passes you wish to tick off your list, if you go to google maps and search for "Albula Pass" or "Julier Pass" it will go to the middle of them :thumb2

Your first route puts you on a lot of motorway, I assume in a bid to get to the Timmelsjoch, IMO not worth it, once off the motorway it is a long slog down the valley to Solden at the start of the TJ with lots of towns and villages, all very pretty but still a long slow slow slog after a load of boring motorway just to "bag" that one pass.

It is you trip at the end of the day, but I have found it is easy to ruin a days riding by trying too hard to include a particular pass, or cram too much in, these days I try to aim for 5-6 hours riding between locations (160 - 180 miles) and make up the best route I can within those limitations.

No idea of Sat Nav, I use a Garmin, none are perfect, they will all make silly choices, my top tips are:

Use plenty of waypoints, use a name for them so they mean something to you (Such as Stelvio in 10 miles) as this helps you know where you are and what is coming up and to place a Waypoint at the start of each pass as well as the top, this will stop the sat nav sending you under a mountain in a tunnel because it is quicker to do that and then go back up and down the ramp on the far side of the mountain, obviously once you hit the "Start" waypoint for a pass you know you are on the right road and should ignore the sat nav if it tells you to turn around....

...I learned the hard way after entering a tunnel and missing out riding a pass I had planned (can't remember where now, but it was most annoying!)
 
Just going back a step. The aim is to get from Chur to Como, in two days, including Stelvio and Splugen. And some other passes. Right?

I'm with Rasher that the lengthy detour to Timmelsjoch isn't worth it. However, it is easy to include all the others - and all of Stelvio (which, unlike Rasher, I do think is a good ride! Everyone's different).

Personally, I'd probably go from Chur to St Moritz (Fluella, Stelvio) and then there are a couple of good options from St Moritz to Como. This full day lets you do Albula, Julier, Splugen and (my favourite of this group) the San Bernardino - but does then lob a chunk of motorway on the back end of the day. But if it's just Julier and Splugen in bad weather, it's a half day – or you could do Splugen and San Bernardino or any other combination
 
Great options there.

I probably should say the Stelvio is half a good ride for me, the West ramp is pretty decent, especially the twists and turns towards the top, but the East ramp is very tight and a lot bumpier and I find does not make for a nice flowing ride. I do recommend everyone tries it to make up their own mind / tick it off their list, one of the best passes for those who like to hang around looking at lots of other bikes as it is always busy at the top.

The other issue can be traffic according to many folk, but having ridden it 3 times, twice quite early in the morning and once late in the afternoon I found it pretty quiet each time, also been lucky to get it in decent weather on every occasion
 
Hi Rasher and Simon W,

Many thanks for your reply.

The reason why I'm planning to do the Timmelsjoch is because most of the people I talked to said that it is probably the best pass in the Alps - or at least one of the best. Isn't that true?

The itinerary is as follows:
Day 1 - London to Charleville Mezieres (Ardennes)
Day 2 - Ardennes to Baden-Baden
Day 3 - Baden-Baden SPA Route
Day 4 - Baden-Baden to Kloten (visit a friend)
Day 5 - Kloten to Chur thru Susten, Grimsel and Furka Passes
Day 6 - Chur to Livigno thru Timmelsjoch Pass
Day 7 - Livigno to Como thru Fluella/Albula/Julier (as per route you advised) and Splugen Passes
Day 8 - Como to Langhe (some good red wine)
Day 9 - Langhe to Genoa thru Appennini Passes between Piemonte and Liguria

Checking the route at the link 1 in my post #74, it seems to be the fastest to get from Chur to Timmelsjoch. If I tried to take the route at the link 2 suggested in the same post it would take me even longer. And if I wanted to avoid the motorway it'd be pretty easy to do so as I could get from Feldkirch to Innsbruck using the B road, which goes parallel to the motorway.
 
Is the Timmelsjoch (Passo del Rombo) one of the 'Alpine greats'? Yes, of course it is, thousands of walkers, bikers, car drivers and bicyclists have gone up and down it just for the experience.

Is it worth deviating maybe miles to tick it off? That depends on the individual, the time available, maybe the weather on the day a bod finds themsemselves at the bottom / the middle / the top and just about anything else. Two things are near enough certain, the pass has been there in its current form for over half a century; it won't be gone in the next 50 or 100 years. So, ride it if it suits you or save it for another time. It really is up to you.

Similarly, it's up to an individual whether they take the B roads that runs parallel to many motorways. There is no guarantee that the B roads are necessarily great roads, the locals spent many millions of pounds to build a motorway for some reason. Sometimes it's because the former B road really was crappy. Some obstinately ride every B road they can find, doing it out of nothing more than pride and bragging rights in the pub. Others take a motorway because it is sensible to do so. You can slot yourself anywhere you like on the spectrum, nobody will know.
 
All I am saying is:

Chur to Livigno thru Timmelsjoch - Highways (Y) Tolls (Y)
Total time: 6hr 45min

Chur to Livigno thru Silvretta Road and Timmelsjoch - Highways (N) Tolls (Y)
Total time: 8hr 25min

Chur to Livigno thru Silvretta Road and Timmelsjoch - Highways (N) Tolls (N)
Total time: 8hr 45min

As you can see there isn't a massive difference between option 2 and 3. And I reckon the 2 is probably the best. Option 1 takes Silvretta Road off the list, which is a shame.

Not sure why option 3 (no tolls) still goes thru the Timmelsjoch though. As far as I know if you come from Austria you have to pay? :confused:
 


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