Ardennes, Vosges, Black Forest, Stelvio, Italian Lakes

What Wapping said.

I fell into this trap in the past, trying really hard to squeeze in an iconic pass where it did not really fit into the trip, or bag a couple of extra ones as I would be near them, unless you are obsessed with ticking them off a list / being able to say you have ridden them it is rarely worth going to extreme lengths - For any pass!!!

I have ridden about 100 of the 300 in the "Motorcycle Journeys" book, plus probably another 20-30 lesser passes not listed, I have tried to "bag" most of his starred passes (he gives some a single or double * in his book) especially the ** ones, of which the Timmelsjoch is, but I have become less obsessed with each trip on trying to add more passes or hunt out every "top" pass.

I personally do not think the TJ is "The Best Pass", in fact I could not easily give a "Best" pass as I can think probably think of 20 or 30 that are absolutely excellent and of the 100 I have ridden there is probably only a handful I would say "don't bother" unless it is exactly on your route, my personal view is 80% of those I have ridden are better than any stretch of road in the UK that I have sampled, I know that might spark a load of people who have never left our shores flaming me :blast

The point is you will be on great roads at all times, it is up to you to choose your routes, you have had plenty of advice and guidance, several of us probably would not make this big detour for that one road, but if it holds that much of a desire or attraction to you (and your unlikely to ever be able to go back and work it into another trip) then you absolutely must do it to satisfy this curiosity - you might find it a mistake and then wish you had done what we would do, or you might think that by some kind of magic one mountain pass really is that much better than the other 500 Alpine passes it justified the excursion - or it was worth the effort to find out for yourself and tell your buddies that they were right all along and buy them a beer, or tell them they are a bunch of idiots and ruined one of your days.

It is also part of the learning curve of motorcycle travel to try different ways of doing things and sometimes it is better to learn from your own mistakes (or moments of brilliance) than it is to have it all decided for you by others - and if that really is your thing maybe an organised tour (Donkey trekking by motorcycle as I call it) is more your thing :thumb2
 
What Wapping said.

....................

..... The point is you will be on great roads at all times, it is up to you to choose your routes, you have had plenty of advice and guidance, several of us probably would not make this big detour for that one road, but if it holds that much of a desire or attraction to you....

Totally agree with this - take some advise for sure, but it's your trip so go with what you want to do because we're all different and will to a greater or lesser extent see the world and a trip differently.

You have had masses of advise on here but unless you want someone to actually guide you along the whole way just go and enjoy the ride - your ride!
 
All I am saying is:

Chur to Livigno thru Timmelsjoch - Highways (Y) Tolls (Y)
Total time: 6hr 45min

Chur to Livigno thru Silvretta Road and Timmelsjoch - Highways (N) Tolls (Y)
Total time: 8hr 25min

Chur to Livigno thru Silvretta Road and Timmelsjoch - Highways (N) Tolls (N)
Total time: 8hr 45min

As you can see there isn't a massive difference between option 2 and 3. And I reckon the 2 is probably the best. Option 1 takes Silvretta Road off the list, which is a shame.

Not sure why option 3 (no tolls) still goes thru the Timmelsjoch though. As far as I know if you come from Austria you have to pay? :confused:

You have three options, all generated I guess from some route plotter website like Google maps. If you like option two and fits in with all your other plans, timetables and if you don't mind paying any tolls, take it. Remember, there is no perfect bible of routes or directions to take. The fellow who wrote the guide to the Alps book took many years to ride and then publish books in several editions on them all and yet others will - quite rightly perhaps, depending on your view - find cause to argue that he's still got bits wrong. It is called 'Free will', so there is nothing you can do about it.

You have decided to ride the spa route through the Black Forest, that's great as it's your choice to do so. Others think that, as it's missed out the B500, you have missed one of Europe's most iconic roads*. Meanwhile, others will swear that the B500 is now but a pale shadow of its former glory and much better roads can be found elsewhere. The truth is, everyone is right and wrong, depending on their view. The main handicap, as you are finding, is that to find and ultimately ride tailor made 'Great must do' roads either requires doing it yourself (effort required) or hoping that someone does it all for you... and nobody (except for the spa towns tourist office) will.

Now, bite the bullet and make a decision. Better still, write a full - and detailed - trip report when you are back.





* A clear decision you have made and yet you agonise over how to go to the Timseljoch (another of Europe's 'must do' iconic roads after all) and whether to maybe go there at all. Just make the same decision as you made over the B500. For good or bad, you'll know for yourself when you've done it or not.
 
Just throw this one in don't know if someone has said the Timmelsjoch at the top has a motorcycle museum. While you are there check it out. We did . Also stopover in Livigno as others have said views are fantastic. Enjoy your trip

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk
 
Just throw this one in don't know if someone has said the Timmelsjoch at the top has a motorcycle museum. While you are there check it out. We did . Also stopover in Livigno as others have said views are fantastic. Enjoy your trip

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

Oh yes, I do know there is a motorcycle museum up there. Just don't think I'll have the time to pop in though. Is it any good?
 
Oh yes, I do know there is a motorcycle museum up there......Is it any good?

The answer would seem to be it is good or at least worthwhile going in, whilst you are up at the top of a pass you have gone to considerable trouble to ride to:

While you are there check it (the museum) out. We did .

'Check it out', is an instruction / invitation / recommendation for you to visit the museum. Time permitting, obviously.

You can though always save the mountain top museum for another day; only disappointing if the museum subsequently closes before you return.

PS 4.9 stars out of 5, in Google reviews. Draw your own conclusions. Though these might be given by bikers who think that one rusty motorbike in a shed is a thing of veneration and, as such, are easily pleased.
 
The answer would seem to be it is good or at least worthwhile going in, whilst you are up at the top of a pass you have gone to considerable trouble to ride to:



'Check it out', is an instruction / invitation / recommendation for you to visit the museum.

You can though always save the mountain top museum for another day; only disappointing if the museum subsequently closes before you return.

PS 4.9 stars out of 5, in Google reviews. Draw your own conclusions. Though these might be given by bikers who think that one rusty motorbike in a shed is a thing of veneration and, as such, are easily pleased.

That might be the case. Just checked the website and it seems the majority of the bikes displayed are very old - prior to 50es and 60es, which are the ones I love the most. I might just pop in for a non-alcoholic drink and keep going.

However, looking at my planned itinerary I should get there around 1pm and that might be a good place where to have a break while visiting the museum and have a some food at the restaurant, which some people seem to have liked. Let see...
 
Oh boy... you like teasing so much! I'm glad you're having fun. I hope I've made your day :thumb

I think Wapping likes to spend more time planning other peoples trips than he does his own.
 
I think Wapping likes to spend more time planning other peoples trips than he does his own.

Hmm... not sure. It's probably more about seeing what other people do and tease the ones he doesn't like ;)
 
Rasher,

A quick advice. Have you ever done this route

Chur to Livigno Thru Timmelsjoch

I was wondering whether instead of going north, east and then south to get to the Timmelsjoch I should instead do something like this

Chur to to Livigno thru Timmelsjoch and part of Fluella (Albula?)

I'd need to do part of the same route twice but if the north bit shown in the first link is not worth riding there is no point in me spending time to go up there just to reach the Timmelsjoch, which in the second option I could do in both ways as I'll have to go back to Livigno. That'd also allow me to do part of the Fluella Pass (I think the bit shown in the second link is the Albula) and not have to do it again the second day.

What do you think?

Just got back from the timmelsjoch and went over the passo giovo (ss44 on your map) to get to it, i thought it was a really good pass and if you got time worth doing,
 
Only eight days to go and no news for the past 13. Are you all set, plans planned, routes routed?
 
Morning All,

A quick summary of my trip to Italy, which was utterly amazing!

Day 1 - London to Ardennes
Not much to say about it. We headed down to Folkestone, where we had to wait for the train due to 1.5 hrs delay, we reached Calais and we continued towards Lille on the highway. Close to Lille we started following some B roads and by 6pm we reached Charleville-Mezieres, a very nice town in the middle of the Ardennes. I recommend visiting it for its Canal, the Place Ducal and also the historic centre. Have a beer at 'La Peniche', a boat made pub / restaurant along the canal - really good Belgian beer.
We stayed at 'La Clef Des Champs', which I recommend for the price/quality. Breakfast was good.

Day 2 - Ardennes to Baden-Baden
Early call in order to reach Baden-Baden in the mid noon. That was a nice ride as the sun was up in the sky, the French countryside is pretty nice and we also managed to cross part of the Vosges natural park. We had our lunch (picnic) in the middle of a wood in the Vosges and we managed to reach Baden-Baden around 3pm.
In Baden-Baden we stayed at the 'Beek Hotel', which I recommend because it's in the very centre of the city but at the same time very quite as it is located in a pedestrian area and it's 1min walk from the Caracalla Thermae, where we went to have some relax in the afternoon of our day 3, after a (very wet) ride.

Day 3 - Baden-Baden SPA Route
As previously mentioned in this thread, we did the SPA route as suggested my the tourism office. Some villages are really worth seeing and I recommend to do this (see previous post for the itinerary). The only downside was the weather: in the afternoon on our way back we were caught by a pretty big storm and we had to ride more than 2 hours under heavy rain. Thankfully when we got back to Baden-Baden the sun was high in the sky and we had some relax at the SPA (see above).

Day 4 - Baden-Baden to Kloten
Sun was high in the sky and the day couldn't start in a better way than having an amazing ride on the B500. We met a friend of mine on the Titisee lake and we visited the 'Rothaus', a brewery with a very good restaurant (http://www.rothaus.de/en).
After having a fulfilling lunch we headed down to the Rhein Falls (must see) and we ended our day ride in Kloten, where we spent the night at my friend's place.

Day 5 - Kloten to Chur through Susten, Grimsel and Furka Passes
The Susten from south to north is an absolute joy to see and ride. Also the Grimsel and Furka (done in this order) are very good. Amazing roads, amazing views.

Day 6 - Chur to Livigno
We were planning to do the Silvretta Road and the Timmelsjoch but the forecast was saying 'rain' so we ended up reaching Livigno through the Albula, Ofen and Stelvio Passes. I agree with the ones who say that the Stelvio is not a great road to ride (the Italian bit, which has to many hairpins) but the view form the top is amazing.
A pass that nobody mentioned but I found really enjoyable in terms of riding is the Ofen Pass: road is large and you can see other vehicles coming from distance. I really enjoyed riding it. And again, the scenery was an absolute wonder. In that area there is the Ela Park, which I recommend to cross because the vegetation over there is unique.
We reached Livigno right after lunch time and we had a nice relaxing afternoon hanging around under a warm sun and crystal clear Italian sky.
We stayed at the 'Bio Hotel Villa Cecilia', which I recommend. It is in partnership with the hotel 'Cervo' and they share the same SPA area.
We had dinner at 'Agriturismo La Tresenda', 10mins ride from Livigno going south. If you happen to be in Livigno you must have a meal there!
PS: if you need to fill your tank Livigno is the right place to do it as no tax is applied - 1L is € 0.9.

Day 7 - Livigno to Lake of Como
We left the hotel early in the morning and we did the tunnel to go back to Switzerland, then we did the Often, Albula (again), Fluela and Julier Passes. After that we reached the Spluga and then all the way down to Como. We had our lunch break at the top of the Spluga Pass and we had a very tasty meal at 'La Capriata'.
We reached 'Hotel Lario' in Mezzegra around 3pm and then we decided to have a quick shower and take the boat for Bellagio, where we had a nice walk, a typical Italian aperitif and dinner. The boat has to be taken from Cadenabbia and the walk from the hotel to the pier is very pleasant.

Day 8 - Como to Langhe
Early call, nice breakfast and we left Como heading to Montemarino, where we spent our last night.
The ride was pretty boring as there is not twisty road in that area (Pianura Padana, very flat!). The weather was nice and and when we reached the Langhe area we had lunch at Agriturismo La Briccola' in Diano d'Alba.
When we reached the 'Relais Montemarino' we had the chance to enjoy the swimming pool, the garden area in front of it and also the private SPA.
We had dinner at 'Formaggeria Otto', where you can have a taste of the local cheese and wine.

Day 9 - Langhe to Genoa (home)
We had one of the most amazing breakfast I've ever had at the 'Relais Montemarino' and then we left heading south to Genoa. Before doing that we went to Bossolasco, where we bought some cheese from a local farmer.
I know most of the roads in that area and I decided to do the Faiallo Pass. Weather wasn't as nice as I expected but the ride was good. Before reaching the Faiallo we stopped in Sassello, which is famous for the 'amaretti' and we obviously bought some.
After doing the Faiallo Pass we did the Turchino Pass, which took us to the Aurelia, the road along the coast in Liguria. We ended our trip having some 'focaccia' and 'trofie al pesto' prepared by my granny.

I hope you find the information above useful and if any questions do not hesitate to ask.

Ciao,

Gab
 
If you want a good value Black Forest stop off Pension Williams is good, just off the B500 about 25 miles south of Baden (in a quiet little village) if you prefer a town I would suggest Triberg.

+1, Pension Williams.... been there 6 times... English owners, clean and tidy, ample parking, food and drink nearby. Honesty bar, they know the area well. Nothing too much trouble. Enjoy
 


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