IAM training/"making progress"

trebor said:
I've had an issue is when someone has been using their SatNav to gauge their speed rather than the bikes speedo, especially on particular windy roads. In this situation the SatNav will display the incorrect speed and they will actually be going faster than they think, potentially exceeding the speed limit.
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How does this equate out mathamatically Bob, surely the GPS is giving a land speed based on positions calculated by satallite reception irrelevant of road curvature or straight line mapping?

ShakeyBMW said:
You only have a 5mph speed differential to stay legal.
Ask yourself; Do the circumstances allow me enough time to complete the overtake safely without exceeding the limit?
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That was my query is IAM training suggesting to stick below posted speed limits even if one could overtake safely with moderate acceleration to make the overtake then slow down to the posted speed limit, given the suggestion was to make "progress"and drive where possible at the posted speed?
 
When I have had RosPA exams I have always discussed this with the examiner to ascertain their attitude to this type of situation. I have had various responses varying from "go for the overtake but don't go more than 10% over the speed limit" to "I want you to stay within the law". If in doubt don't do it as you cannot be failed for refusing to break the law.
 
trebor said:
The IAM's take on the OP's question is that you do not plan to exceed the speed limit.
There are times when, whilst you were not planning to exceed the speed limit, the actions of other road users may suddenly cause you to have to re-evaluate the situation and the best/safest course of action to take may be to speed up slightly. In this situation, providing it is justifiable, I think it would be very unusual for an examiner to fail anyone. I believe it falls under what the IAM's Peter Rogers would call a 'thinking rider' approach.

'Tractors are go' raises some interesting points, particularly with the discrepancies between Scotland and England. We were discussing these just the other week at an intergroup meeting I was at which was on the 'Borders'. A question was raised that if British traffic law applied to both countries, and it wasn't illegal to straight line (nor offside for that matter) then, providing it was done safely/in safe situations, then why should a Scottish IAM examiner fail someone just because Police Scotland don't do it. We felt it shouldn't matter that Police Scotland don't do it, they don't set the Road traffic Law nor does the Scottish Parliament (currently), therefore the Scottish Examiners should apply British Law. Just our opinion at this meeting.

Regarding the speedo discrepancy, normally these are only differences of 2 or 3 mph so are too insignificant to worry about and should have no impact on a 'test' situation. Besides, speedos are designed to under-read rather than be over. The only time, whilst observing, I've had an issue is when someone has been using their SatNav to gauge their speed rather than the bikes speedo, especially on particular windy roads. In this situation the SatNav will display the incorrect speed and they will actually be going faster than they think, potentially exceeding the speed limit.

Bob
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Re Police Scotland and offsiding. First, I think the mini roundabout example.given by Tractors may be a bit confusing. A better example might be adopting a position on the other carriageway to maximise view or straighten a series of bends. I think the reason for the advice is largely "political" and to do with the fact that Scotland is inundated every year with fly drive tourists and bikers from abroad. Consequently, there are fatalities every year from "wrong side" errors plus native bikers who "offside" and get it badly wrong. For PS to endorse a practice which might make matters worse is simply a non starter and since IAM examiner cadre is still dominated by Police or ex Police, there you have it. You can argue all you like about "thinking riders" but the buck has to stop somewhere and PS have ensured that no one can lay it at their door. I always give the IAM / PS line to associates after explaining as above and make the point that unless they are 100% certain the road is clear, the benefits of offsiding are far outweighed by the potential cost. We are not cats after all ...
 
Andi_archer said:
That was my query is IAM training suggesting to stick below posted speed limits even if one could overtake safely with moderate acceleration to make the overtake then slow down to the posted speed limit, given the suggestion was to make "progress"and drive where possible at the posted speed?
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Once upon a time IAM taught that it was better to complete the overtake as quickly as possible in order to minimise the time spent on the wrong side of the road.
In these more litigeous times (is that a word?) we have to be explicit about not greaking the law during an overtake.

Tractors are go: Recent guidance to the Scottish IAM bike group forum is that offsiding is verboten. The rider should not need to offside for a left hand bend. Straightlining on roundabouts is fine as long as it does not confuse other road users.
We were told that Police Scotland “frown on it” but I wonder what law they would try to prosecute against?
 
scotboxer said:
the benefits of offsiding are far outweighed by the potential cost. We are not cats after all ...
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I couldn't agree more and, as I'm sure you'll know, the IAM view is that Observers do not teach offsiding, not even at Masters level.
Under normal road riding, on most roads/bends, offsiding is unlikely to be of benefit at legal speeds. I probably confused the issue by mentioning offsiding, I only did so as, like straight lining, it's not actually illegal (unless you cross a solid line to do so), and whilst the Police in England use the technique, I believe that in Scotland they don't.
 
There is much focus on this thread about "making progress". Just as important is "showing restraint" and judging which is applicable in a given circumstance - overtaking in particular.
 
Andi_archer said:
How does this equate out mathamatically Bob, surely the GPS is giving a land speed based on positions calculated by satallite reception irrelevant of road curvature or straight line mapping?
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The best way is to try it yourself, ride round a series of bends at a fixed speed as indicated on the GPS, and watch what your bike speedo is showing.
It's to do with the fact that the Sat Nav records the speed by taking samples at certain intervals. Imagine the actual distance around a bend, lets say the first sample is taken just before you enter the bend, then the second is just after the bend. The distance around the bend is longer than the straight line distance between the two sample points, lets say it's twice the distance to make the maths easier. So, lets say the GPS calculated the speed between the two sample points to be 50mph, however the actual distance you travelled would have been twice the distance between the two sample points, therefore your actual speed, over ground, would have been 100mph.

Of course this is an extreme example to illustrate the point, but the difference between the GPS speed and actual speed can be as high as 10mph, or more, depending on terrain. The only time the GPS gives a 100% accurate speed recording is when you are travelling in a straight line on level ground. Even going up, or down, a steep incline can have a significant effect on the accuracy of the GPS speed readout.

Bob
 
Cheers Bob well explained I will have to watch out for that :D


Any other additional tips re progressive safe driving most welcome :D
 
My observation was the discrepancy between one area and another, over what is the IAM standards for test.

I did courses with MoD and Hendon so off siding, where appropriate wasn't an issue. I also did refresher driving course at Tulliallan too.

You move when you have the view, not for the view. There are times to consider it, others not.

I do attend the Scottish Forum, think beard, glasses and EDAM !

As for the speedo bit; the algorithms for satnav aren't that complex, remember trigonometry at school !

However, it is accurate to around 0•7% but on the level and at a constant speed. Most but not all speedo's are around 2%. Guidance was always the speedometer is the legal requirement, a satnav isn't.

Do you want an associate to sit behind a bus doing 55 in the nsl, where they demonstrate what ? Or safely overtake at say 64 then slow to nsl how do you know exactly what speed they did, if you're playing catchup ?

Can we condone or approve speeding either as an individual or organisationally? Of course not.

What's the disclaimer ?

YOU are at all times in charge of your own vehicle.

Do people speed, yes. Bloody stupid to do it during test though.



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
Passed my IAM and RoSPA in the Scottish Borders, IAM examiner was a Strathclyde Police Officer, RoSPA examiner a South Wales Police Officer. In both cases you were expected to make progress, but not overly speed. You were expected to at least move to a position to see if an overtake was possible, if it wasn't on, drop back. If you exceeded the speed limit on the test, it was your decision, neither examiner could brief you to do so. You could exceed the speed limit in the test if you say passed a vehicle in the NSL who was doing 55, you were expected to effect the overtake and then drop back, so not poodle past at 59, thus putting yourself at risk on the other side of the road. On the IAM I did straight line some bends in the road, windy road, full visibility and flat, didn't fail either test. Although the South Wales Police instructors did tell us, they no longer offside at normal riding speeds. Last point, I know at least one RoSPA examiner, who rightly tells students they must not break the speed limit. Yet if they religiously stick to the NSL if overtaking opportunities occur, they will not get a Gold, as there is no zing to the ride, so before you take either test you need to understand what is expected with reference to speed and hopefully your tutor or observer will brief accordingly :) This was 3 years ago, so not sure if this has changed. Doing my RoSPA again next month, so will get guidance before the test.
 
casbar said:
Passed my IAM and RoSPA in the Scottish Borders, IAM examiner was a Strathclyde Police Officer, RoSPA examiner a South Wales Police Officer. In both cases you were expected to make progress, but not overly speed. You were expected to at least move to a position to see if an overtake was possible, if it wasn't on, drop back. If you exceeded the speed limit on the test, it was your decision, neither examiner could brief you to do so. You could exceed the speed limit in the test if you say passed a vehicle in the NSL who was doing 55, you were expected to effect the overtake and then drop back, so not poodle past at 59, thus putting yourself at risk on the other side of the road. On the IAM I did straight line some bends in the road, windy road, full visibility and flat, didn't fail either test. Although the South Wales Police instructors did tell us, they no longer offside at normal riding speeds. Last point, I know at least one RoSPA examiner, who rightly tells students they must not break the speed limit. Yet if they religiously stick to the NSL if overtaking opportunities occur, they will not get a Gold, as there is no zing to the ride, so before you take either test you need to understand what is expected with reference to speed and hopefully your tutor or observer will brief accordingly :) This was 3 years ago, so not sure if this has changed. Doing my RoSPA again next month, so will get guidance before the test.
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Good points, agree with the comments. I would add that on my Masters test I offsided quite a bit on moorland roads with good sight lines and no other traffic near me. The examiner commented adversely on this saying that at Police, three figure speeds, there was perhaps some slight advantage to be gained but at normal speeds not. There was, he said, also a danger of sending confusing messages to other road users.

In short, "why bother doing it" he asked when the corners could have been safely negotiated whilst remaining on the nearside. I couldn't argue with that.
 
I think that one point worth making is this.
Both the IAM & RoSPA are organisations set-up to improve road safety.
Regardless of what individuals may think, neither organisation can be seen to condone, promote even, breaking the law in their corporate communications.
As a consequence they make it clear that breaking the law is a fail. It can't be any other way.
The point made by a few above has merit. On the day, ask your examiner for guidance.
Personally I choose Test routes that can be a challenge for some at perfectly lawful speeds, with some A-class & dual-carriageway thrown in.
 
Tractors are go said:
My observation was the discrepancy between one area and another, over what is the IAM standards for test.

I did courses with MoD and Hendon so off siding, where appropriate wasn't an issue. I also did refresher driving course at Tulliallan too.

You move when you have the view, not for the view. There are times to consider it, others not.

I do attend the Scottish Forum, think beard, glasses and EDAM !

As for the speedo bit; the algorithms for satnav aren't that complex, remember trigonometry at school !

However, it is accurate to around 0•7% but on the level and at a constant speed. Most but not all speedo's are around 2%. Guidance was always the speedometer is the legal requirement, a satnav isn't.

Do you want an associate to sit behind a bus doing 55 in the nsl, where they demonstrate what ? Or safely overtake at say 64 then slow to nsl how do you know exactly what speed they did, if you're playing catchup ?

Can we condone or approve speeding either as an individual or organisationally? Of course not.

What's the disclaimer ?

YOU are at all times in charge of your own vehicle.

Do people speed, yes. Bloody stupid to do it during test though.



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So which MOD courses did you do ?.
 
Martyn H said:
Personally I choose Test routes that can be a challenge for some at perfectly lawful speeds, with some A-class & dual-carriageway thrown in.
Click to expand...

I've hung my examiners hat up now, after 24 years ... but again I agree with you Martyn :thumb

:beerjug:
 
Having just Passed the Masters with a Distinction, the Examiner made it clear in his pre ride brief that there would be places where crossing the white line would be advantageous. He also made it clear that moving into an offside position to hunt for the view would not be acceptable. IE if you are out in position 5/6 looking for hazards and a vehicle appears while you are still there he will stop the ride.
I was pre warned a little by another group member who had just done his test with the same examiner. Crossing the white line was ok for trimming bends etc when the view ahead was clear.

Speeding was a no no , break the Law,Fail the test. In a N/s area if you are behind a car travelling at 55 mph, you follow at a safe distance ,close up when a bend appears ,ready for the overtake on exit. If thats not on drop back again.

I really enjoyed the challenge riding on Unknown to me roads, they were better to be honest as they keep you more alert . The examiner was friendly and helpful both at the start and the end.
 
trebor said:
It's to do with the fact that the Sat Nav records the speed by taking samples at certain intervals. Imagine the actual distance around a bend, lets say the first sample is taken just before you enter the bend, then the second is just after the bend.
Click to expand...

Schtum said:
NMEA sample rate is 1Hz.
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On that basis, at a speed of 60mph, the distance between samples is 30yds. It would need to be a bloody tight bend for the error to be material.
 
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