Lithium starter battery

Bendy toy

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My venerable Odyssey has been giving a few slow starts recently in spite of the new starter motor. So decided its time to change.

Ive just fitted this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lithium-I...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

It replaces the Yuasa YTX14H so isn't isn't a direct equivalent to a new Odyssey. However CCA is 240Amps. Odyssey claim CCA of 200Amps. Other measures show the LiFePo can gives 350 amps in burst tests. The Odyssey can give 535A for 5 seconds. But, the starter motor won't be rated above 2KW so more than 200 Amps (2.4 KW) is no real benefit. 535Amps (or even 350) burst is academic.

Some lead-acid battery tests don't apply with LiFePo because they run the battery to 6V which will wreck a LiFePo.

The new battery weighs about 2 pounds (less than 1kg). The Odyessy is 5.2 kg and only just crams into the bike.

On starting, the Odyssey voltage was dropping into the 10s. Straight out of the box, the new one is hardly dropping at all. Time will tell of course but LiFePo is claimed to offer more start cycles and no damage if left unused. At the price I thought well worth a try.

The new one is "only" 4 amp hours but LiFePo can deliver all of its charge at high current. A lead acid will only give 30% at high current. The remains AH has to be taken at low current. No benefit to me I don't need to run a reading light all night.

The one risk is running a LiFePo to dead flat will kill it. Forget to take the ignition key out (lights will be on) and you will come back to a scrap battery. The Lead acid will often be recoverable perhaps with an Optimate. The Lithium is dead & gone.

Also never use an Optimate charger. The "wake up" high voltage boost will wreck a LiFePo.

LiFePo is not as good at low temperatures they have to be "worked" to self heat before they will deliver starting current. But a lead acid will give you one chance in the cold. If it struggles you are stuck. No second chances. My bike is garaged and I don't ride in -10 Centigrade so not too fussed about that issue.
 
These are definitely getting cheaper as they become more established over the years. But, cold weather riding and camping is still part of my life and therefore, these batteries are more of a risk to me getting stuck if it won't turn the engine over.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
The CCA test routine is the same as used for lead acids. The Odyssey claims 200 Amps. This LiFePo claims 240 Amps. The next bigger version (at just over 1kg) has 300Amps CCA but costs £100. As said, a new Odyssey has a better brute burst current, but >500Amps is academic anyway.

A 30% discharged lead acid will struggle to start the engine because it's gone below its high current range. So having that additional amp hours is really a mirage. It's useless for anything except a small light. Also anything below 9.5V will damage a lead acid though it wont scrap it. It will hit that voltage long before its used all of it's claimed AH. Many wont accept a charge when they get below 9.5 volts open circuit though an Optimate can recover them.

Starter batteries can't do deep discharge. Deep cycle batteries wont dellver a decent start current. Relying on a starter battery for camping is risking too little charge to start the bike when you need it.

I hardly ever do any bike camping but a lithium booster battery (not the same tech as LiFePo starter batteries) makes sense. These will run computers and phones with no fancy adaptors and can run flat with no harm. They are tough and charge by USB so can be kept under the seat. The laptop/iPad/phone/camera can be left safely padded away in the luggage. Many booster packs also have a handy jump starting option as a bonus.

Lithium for the car is another thing. That does stand outside in all weathers so would need a larger AH capacity. I recently bought a 50AH car starter battery for £50. A 12AH LiFePO (same usable capacity at starter current) would cost a fortune.

Edit
The Odyssey spec states - Capacity at 20 hour rate 14Ah (original battery is 13Ah)

14AH at 20 hours is 0.7 amps per hour about 9 watts. Hardly much use for anything. A faster (more useful) discharge rate will not deliver the full 14 Amp Hours.

They don't mention the battery would be well below its minimum open circuit voltage by then.
 
I know you have made all your reasoning as to why 4AH is enough but its something that would bother me, especially on a modern bike with quite a high switch off drain. Add an alarm or whatever and your in a real risk of having a flat battery pretty quickly. Obviously this is why it is so cheap, basically there isn't actually much battery in that case. Great if the bike is always on a tender though and if that is the case then it will probably work out for you.
 
My point is that 4AH is more than enough. A Lithium can use all of it, whereas it's all you can usefully get from a 14AH lead acid so in reality its no less useful.

The Odyssey which is supposed to be the dog's bits in R1200 batteries states "Reserve capacity 20 minutes". Presumably the bike will run for 20 minutes before the battery is too flat to run the systems. Do the sums and it comes out at the 30% discharge which is about 4AH. The 14AH over 20 hour figure is academic. What can you usefully do with 9 watts?

In terms of usability the LiFePo is smaller, 20% of the weight, cheaper (£65 v £109) and offers the same overall performance with no damage when left unused.

The lead acid can never usefully deliver it's 14 amp hours. It's only there because without that size it wont make enough current to spin the starter. In all other terms its actual usable capacity is 4AH.

I accept the lead acid can be totally flattened and might recover. But flatten it slowly (e.g. with alarm drain) and it's likely to be a dead brick just as the LiFePo would be. Optimate chargers are not the panacea some would have us believe. I use mine to recover flat batteries and for top ups. It cooked a battery that was left connected for a few months. Any battery running an alarm would need top up charge over the same period so apart from how it's maintained there's no difference. And an Optimate is pretty useless in a garage with no mains power.

Now that LiFePo is comparable cost with medium quality lead acid there's really no point in staying with the heavy and fussy lead acids. The lead acid AH value is a myth that makes them appear bigger (in capacity) than they usefully are.
 
I bought a JMT and put it on my 1200ST earlier this year. I had to buy (I assumed I had to buy....) a specific charger to go with it. It turned the engine over slower than the previous Motobatt did, which surprised me....but then electrical stuff is a complete mystery to me. Anyway, I didn't have confidence in the JMT, there seemed to be too many do's and dont's, so I sold it, and the charger. :rolleyes:

When I bought the ST 6 years ago, it had a BMW-branded Exide fitted, which was still going strong when I replaced it with the Motobatt - I thing the Exide was probably the one the ST came with from new. I'm not convinced by LiFePo batteries, but that might just be because I'm thick - 'traditional' ones have stood me in good stead, always.

One question - when a LiFePo is fitted, it gets charged by the bike in exactly the same way as the previous, older-tech batteries did. What's the difference between a LiFePo-specific mains charger, and an ordinary (non-intelligent) trickle charger, as, presumably, they must both replicate what an alternator does? Or was the 'you must use a lithium-specific charger' just marketing hype? :nenau

Pete
 
I know what your point is Bendy but your not getting my point. 4AH isn't enough under a lot of situations and too small an AH is one of the biggest reasons for disgruntled lithium owners. If it works for you though, great, for most people though I would highly recommend you spend a bit more and get a larger capacity one. Cheap is cheap but it's not much fun in the winter when you have had to crank a couple of times to warm the battery only to find you have used the capacity.
 
I went down the Lithium route; as I know the actual max current output for my charger I wasn't bothered buying a "special" charger.

What's the current output for a gsa alternator ?

I've found that bmw batteries last 53 weeks !

Sometimes the vehicle output/battery are so well matched they last year's, for other's it is month's.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
 
Marki_GSA said:
I know what your point is Bendy but your not getting my point. 4AH isn't enough under a lot of situations and too small an AH is one of the biggest reasons for disgruntled lithium owners. If it works for you though, great, for most people though I would highly recommend you spend a bit more and get a larger capacity one. Cheap is cheap but it's not much fun in the winter when you have had to crank a couple of times to warm the battery only to find you have used the capacity.
Click to expand...

But you are comparing apples and pears. 4AH Lithium has the same usability as a 14AH lead acid. The lead can't use most of its capacity so the high numbers are academic. Maintenance methods are not quite the same e.g. lithiums get wrecked on Optimate chargers.

The massive and very expensive Odyssey will only run the bike for 20 minutes before it's flat. The 4AH LiFePo will last about the same. Again academic because the bike then can't be started if the generator fault can be fixed.
 
Got a lightweight Lithium on my Panigale, sooo light, left all winter without a charge or any sort of maintenance. Bike fired up first press, great bits of kit
 
skid06 said:
Got a lightweight Lithium on my Panigale, sooo light, left all winter without a charge or any sort of maintenance. Bike fired up first press, great bits of kit
Click to expand...

I went with one that offers 240 CCA. I thought about going to 200 CCA (same as the Odyssey) but chickened out. Looking at the space available there is enough room to strap it under the front beak support bar between the forks. It would need brackets extended leads etc, but the idea free's up loads of space under the seat. There might even be enough space under the petrol tank but access and heat soak might be a problem.
 
Are Li Fe Po batterys the same as Li-Po batterys?

My understanding of Li-Po batterys is that they dont like to be used when discharged -

The battery has a sharp drop off point --- ie it will work - slow and then nothing ... at this point stop using it

if you keep trying to use it after the stop point it causes serious dmage to the battery - look on youtube for exploding lipo batterys

and they need a voltage regulating charger - they dont like to be overcharged either ...

Hence the 3rd wire going to the battery to monitor current
 
https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm

Quote
Lithium Iron Phosphate Parameters
Nominal voltage 3.2 Volts
Peak voltage 3.65 Volts Note our new data on capacity versus charge voltage
Absolute Minimum discharge voltage 2.0 Volts
CV charge voltage 3.65 Volts 100% charge
CV charge voltage 3.5 Volts 95% charge
Charge Temperature 0°-40°C
Discharge Temperature -10°-60°C​


The LiFePo is a solid state battery. At low charge, the power drops off suddenly (as does lead acid). Below 8V (2V per cell) open circuit will scrap the battery.

6 cell (12 volt) lead acids will fall rapidly from anywhere between 10 and 11 volts. Open circuit below 9V can reverse polarity a cell so the battery refuses to hold a charge. Optimate recovery mode can pull them back but not always.

Most bikes wont run at such low voltages but an alarm left on while bike is stored might do the damage. Depends if they power down at a low system voltage. An Optimate will scrap a LiFePO if it goes into wake-up/recovery mode. Ordinary chargers are ok. Fancy chargers will fill the battery to the max and do it faster.

Lithium Polymer has a liquid electrolyte will accept a fast charge but can be easily overheat & needs a special charger. Not suitable as a vehicle start battery.

Booster packs sold for jump starting cars are LiPO. They are charged by USB and will be damaged if left connected to the car for too long.
 
Lithium battery fire risk

Am I right in thinking there is an increased fire risk with lithium batteries ? I read that was the reason the fire couldn't be extinguished when some very expensive cars crashed & caught fire . Or is that just an urban myth?
 
Marjie said:
Am I right in thinking there is an increased fire risk with lithium batteries ? I read that was the reason the fire couldn't be extinguished when some very expensive cars crashed & caught fire . Or is that just an urban myth?
Click to expand...

Its not a myth there where some fires at the beginning, but now most good high end Lithium have all sorts of circuit breakers on them, and only a few names on the market can be trusted, 1st Antigravitebatteries, 2nd Shorai,3rd Odyssey, but that is the only 3 I have used and trust, and the number order is just for reference does not mean number 1 is the best.
 
Marjie said:
Am I right in thinking there is an increased fire risk with lithium batteries ? I read that was the reason the fire couldn't be extinguished when some very expensive cars crashed & caught fire . Or is that just an urban myth?
Click to expand...

All batteries will explode if abused hard enough. I have a 4 Amp ordinary battery charger which can never take the battery above 95% so no worries about over charging. Says below, the Lithium Polymer type is 200 times more likely to burn when over charged than the dry cell LiFePo.

https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm

Quote
LiCoO2 (Lithium Polymer) battery has a very narrow overcharge tolerance, about 0.1V over the 4.2V per cell charging voltage plateau, which also the upper limit of the charge voltage. Continuous charging over 4.3V would either damage the battery performance, such as cycle life, or result in fire or explosion.

A LiFePO4 battery has a much wider overcharge tolerance of about 0.7V from its charging voltage plateau of 3.5V per cell. When measured with a differential scanning calorimeter (DSC) the exothermic heat of the chemical reaction with electrolyte after overcharge is only 90 Joules/gram for LiFePO4 versus 1600 J/g for LiCoO2. The greater the exothermic heat, the more vigorous the fire or explosion that can happen when the battery is abused.

A LiFePO4 battery can be safely overcharged to 4.2 volts per cell, but higher voltages will start to break down the organic electrolytes. Nevertheless, it is common to charge a 12 volt a 4-cell series pack with a lead acid battery charger. The maximum voltage of these chargers, whether AC powered, or using a car's alternator, is 14.4 volts. This works fine, but lead acid chargers will lower their voltage to 13.8 volts for the float charge, and so will usually terminate before the LiFe pack is at 100%. For this reason a special LiFe charger is required to reliably get to 100% capacity.​
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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