No. It's definitely crap.

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Can I ask what happens if you stop the route (i.e. press the Stop button) and then start it again (i.e. Where To / Trip Apps / Saved Route) during the trip. From what I have found, the nav will ask you what Waypoint you want to go to next. You will then only have one option, i.e your final destination. Does choosing that not then ignore all the shaping points that you have set and send you direct there?

That's been my experience.

Why would you do that? You have just instructed it to cancel the route-why would it not do something different afterwards? Or do you mean what happens when you stop, say for coffee, and then start off again? This was a problem with very early versions of the later type of Garmin 300/400 series for example. that was solved by software updates some time ago. My 390 just carries on with the route after a b reak. I just turn off the ignition and the route resumes as soon as I turn it back on again. I would only ever cancel a route by using the stop function if I wanted to change plans

I would say be very careful about using the stop function, it is really an instruction to completely cancel the route and start again.

I hope that helps

John
 
Can I ask what happens if you stop the route (i.e. press the Stop button) and then start it again (i.e. Where To / Trip Apps / Saved Route) during the trip. From what I have found, the nav will ask you what Waypoint you want to go to next. You will then only have one option, i.e your final destination. Does choosing that not then ignore all the shaping points that you have set and send you direct there?

That's been my experience.
As The Grey One says, I rarely stop the GPS mid route as doing so is telling the GPS that its work is done.

However, I've found that on a route with only shaping points and a final waypoint the behaviour can vary if you start the route again and choose the final destination. In my experience, if you're very close to the route it will obey shaping points. If, however, you're away from the route it will just take you directly to the destination.I did extensive testing to confirm the behaviour.

The only time I tend to restart a route is if there's been a problem with the GPS, such as it crashing (rare). My routes tend to use waypoints for things like planned coffee stops, fuel, food, meeting people etc. Between them I use shaping points. The good thing about waypoints is in Basecamp I can set layover durations to get a better ETA at places along the route if collecting people as we go, or for the inevitable "are we there yet? When's the next pee stop? How long 'til I can eat?" from within the group.

When stopping at a waypoint, for example for lunch, I just get back on the bike and carry on riding. The GPS simply continues with the route without me needing to do anything.
 
I've stopped a route before to have a look at a different route, or look for something else whilst stopped for a break. I've learned to insert a Waypoint into the route just up the road before stopping it now. Even that can be a mission as it's not easy to find out where you are on your planned route just by looking at the list of way / shaping points.

Yes, if you just switch the power off I agree it powers up again and restarts from where you are.

I just don't follow why you can't do a sort of 'part' route, ie start the route while you are on it and continue or have a choice to continue from where you are following the shaping points.

Maybes I need to update the software.

Thanks
 
I've stopped a route before to have a look at a different route, or look for something else whilst stopped for a break.

Yes, if you just switch the power off I agree it powers up again and restarts from where you are.

I just don't follow why you can't do a sort of 'part' route, ie start the route while you are on it and continue or have a choice to continue from where you are following the shaping points.

Maybes I need to update the software.

Thanks
As I mentioned in my previous post, if I restart the route it will follow the shaping points as long as I'm on the route when I do so and select the correct next destination. When prompting me for the next destination when I restart the route it tends to default to the correct next destination. It's worth checking though, as it sometimes gets it wrong.
 
On an unfamiliar route, how do you know which one is your next WP? There doesn't seem to be a marker or any type of indication in the list showing where you are along the route.
 
On an unfamiliar route, how do you know which one is your next WP? There doesn't seem to be a marker or any type of indication in the list showing where you are along the route.
I planned the route, so I'm usually familiar with places we are visiting. I know which stops I've been to due to how I name them and what I planned for the trip.

As a last resort, I know how many I've visited through the day so could count down to the next on that list when prompted.

The GPS usually offers me the correct next destination (it's highlighted in the list when it asks) but does occasionally get it wrong.
 
Was somewhere unfamiliar recently but using routes I had planned a while ago so not easy to remember the order of points.

Seems like development has gone backwards since the 550 / 660s :rob

Hey-ho...thanks for the replies
 
On an unfamiliar route, how do you know which one is your next WP? There doesn't seem to be a marker or any type of indication in the list showing where you are along the route.

It really is best to keep the number of waypoints to a minimum, only those places you actually need to go to. Use shaping points (via points in Mapsource) instead.

John
 
It really is best to keep the number of waypoints to a minimum, only those places you actually need to go to. Use shaping points (via points in Mapsource) instead.

John

A very sensible piece of advice.

Just to remind everyone who might have forgotten or those that do not know:

1. A waypoint is an electric point or beacon, through which you have told your GPS device you MUST pass through. They come from navigation in otherwise featureless surroundings. For example, an aeroplane flying above the clouds, a ship sailing on an open ocean or a motorbike riding across the desert sands, may need to make a turn at a specific point or pass through a set point in order to satisfy the rules of a race. There is no marker hanging in the air, no buoy bobbing in the ocean or signpost in the desert, so an electronic one is made.

As you, the owner, have told your GPS device that you MUST go through the electronic point, it will do its very best to ensure that you do. Therefore your device will keep rerouting (particularly if you have auto-recalculate turned on) back until you do. The latest devices have worked out that some riders when out hooning will decide to miss a waypoint on purpose, so will get very annoyed when the device keeps taking them back to go through it; the dumb device not being a mind reader. Garmin have added two buttons to cater for riders' changes of mind: The 'skip waypoint' button and a function in preferences that allows the device to automatically skip waypoints if it decides that a rider is now so far off route that he must have decided in his own mind to miss the waypoint out. Tick the auto-skip function with caution as it may well override other preferences you have set. For example, it overrides an instruction the rider has given their device not to recalculate a route. It will recalculate (though you have told it not to) and may as a consequence alter the route you created so patiently.

2. A viapoint or shaping point is different. It is if you like an electronic drawing pin, that has been used to pin the magenta ribbon line of a route to a specific point on the map *. They appear when you create a route on your computer at home, either when you click on a road that you want the magenta line to go down or when you drag the magenta line to follow a certain road. Here it's worth pointing out that BaseCamp and Mapsource do things slightly differently. In Mapsource, the drawing pins are viapoints by default. In BaseCamp, the drawing pins are shaping points BUT the software - and as a consequence your GPS device - sees them as waypoints. This possibly explains why some bods see lots of waypoints in their GPS devices and get confused as to which ones they have passed through and which ones are still up ahead. The good news is that Mapsource and BaseCamp and the latest generation GPS devices allows the owner to change individual waypoints into a via/shaping point and back again to waypoint at will. There are lots of threads and posts on how to do this.... read them and / or read your expanded owner's manual in its downloadable form. BaseCamp on a Mac does flag up a possible error when a shaping point is placed off a known road shown on the map. It lists the point in the column on the left where waypoints live, with a number alongside it. Highlight the item in the list and ask BaseCamp to show it on the map. Drag the erroneous point back onto the road and clear the number from the list.

As you ride along the magenta line your device simply ticks off via/shaping points as you pass through them. If when you create your route, whether on the device or on your computer at home, you place the drawing pin off the road by accident, say in a field 20 yards off the road or in a side road that (because you didn't zoom the map in far enough you didn't know was there) the magenta line will go to it, without a doubt. Why? Because you have told the dumb device that you do want to go through a point 20 yards off the road or to that point in a side road; so it does just that, as it's been told to by you, the device's owner and master.

You can miss via/shaping points with impunity, though it follows that if you decide to miss the point that you (not the device) created 20 yards into a field or up the side road, you will drive - if only briefly - off the magenta line and, as a consequence, off route. Depending on how you have your GPS device set up and a number of other factors, your driving off route might lead to a recalution of the route by the device. The consequences (if any) of the recalution will vary.... see lots of threads and posts about recalculation.




* Think of those old war films, with paper maps on the wall. The maps have ribbons on them, held place and shaped by drawing pins. The magenta line and the via/shaping points are just the same as the ribbon and drawing pins.

PS Bikermates who insist on creating their routes outside of BaseCamp or Mapsource, in for example MotoGoLoco, may encounter other strange phenomena when it comes to way/via/shaping points.These they will very often blame on Garmin and or on their dumb (but really very clever) GPS devices. Instead of asking the third party software provider for help - possibly because they know they won't get any or because they can't be arsed - they'll ask here, sometimes emphasing their demands for help by shouting a lot. Mix in that other owners decide to tell only half the story ( or change the pertinent details in their tale of woe quite remarkably as the thread develops) it's not surprising that some threads roll onto pages and pages......
 
If you click on a village or town it'll stick you on some tiny side road in the village and nav there rather than going straight through.

I really don't recommend using a village name as a waypoint. Garmin gets its mapping data from a 3rd party, so it's probably them who have defined exactly where "village name" is.

If you use just the name, then it's the same as you and I agreeing to meet "in Portsmouth" - the chances of you and I both having the same definition of "in Portsmouth" are very slim. You could end up on one street, and me in another, both claiming that we've followed the instruction to meet "in Portsmouth". Your GPS and you are probably having the same conversation; you told it to route via Portsmouth and so it did, it's just that its definition of the exact location of Portsmouth differed from yours.
 
Was somewhere unfamiliar recently but using routes I had planned a while ago so not easy to remember the order of points.

Seems like development has gone backwards since the 550 / 660s :rob

Hey-ho...thanks for the replies
Do you not name the points so you know what they are?

I name mine either after function, location, time or a combination, e.g. "Bob's cafe - morning coffee", "Louth Esso - afternoon fuel". That way I know what they are and if the GPS asked which point I wanted next, in the unlikely event I'd had to restart the route, I know I'm in "Bob's cafe" and it's morning, so the point I'd tell the GPS to take me to is the one after "Bob's cafe - morning coffee" in the list.

My routes have a very small number of waypoints, typically mid morning, lunch, mid afternoon and destination. There may be the odd one or two extra, but I always know where I'm up to. In the worst scenario, you could count how many of the waypoints you've stopped at so far and use that to work out the next one.
 
Sadly for the very detailed expanation given by the ever helpful Wapping, Garmin appear to have changed their terminology.

Looking at the user manual for the Nav 6 they talk about Via points and Shaping points as being different. Pages 9/10 of the manual covers this. What they discribe as a via point is what most of us know as a waypoint saying "via points are intermediate destinations along your route" It talks about shaping points as being "used to shape the direction of your route" I suspect most of us thought that has away been the case for shaping points.

So OK they have changed the definitions but why then is there mention of waypoints - Page 5 " Navigating to skipped waypoints?

Can anyone clarify, do we still have waypoints, via points and shaping points and is there an agreed definition for each? For me all this is a little academic, I will continue to use Mapsource which has waypoints as places I absolutely want to visit and via points which simply indicate which roads the device should use. Basecamp user though might like an explanation if things have changed.

I am wondering if the confusion between waypoint, via and shaping points might be causing some of the problems folk are having with the Nav 6.


John
 
Sadly for the very detailed expanation given by the ever helpful Wapping, Garmin appear to have changed their terminology.

Looking at the user manual for the Nav 6 they talk about Via points and Shaping points as being different. Pages 9/10 of the manual covers this. What they discribe as a via point is what most of us know as a waypoint saying "via points are intermediate destinations along your route" It talks about shaping points as being "used to shape the direction of your route" I suspect most of us thought that has away been the case for shaping points.

So OK they have changed the definitions but why then is there mention of waypoints - Page 5 " Navigating to skipped waypoints?

Can anyone clarify, do we still have waypoints, via points and shaping points and is there an agreed definition for each? For me all this is a little academic, I will continue to use Mapsource which has waypoints as places I absolutely want to visit and via points which simply indicate which roads the device should use. Basecamp user though might like an explanation if things have changed.

I am wondering if the confusion between waypoint, via and shaping points might be causing some of the problems folk are having with the Nav 6.


John
I've found internet discussions going back to 2010 relating to terminology. The consensus back then was via points and way points are the same, must visit points, and shaping points are would like to visit points.

The Garmin forum said:

The concepts are quite simple. It's the method of distinguishing one from the other that is likely quite subtle in the code.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.
 
All gleaned from a quick google but by no means definative

Waypoints
Waypoints are locations or landmarks worth recording and storing in your GPS. These are locations you may later want to return to. They may be check points on a route or significant ground features. (e.g., camp, the truck, a fork in a trail, or a favorite fishing spot). Waypoints may be defined and stored in the unit manually by taking coordinates for the waypoint from a map or other reference. This can be done before ever leaving home. Or more usually, waypoints may be entered directly by taking a reading with the unit at the location itself, giving it a name, and then saving the point. Waypoints may also be put into the unit by referencing another waypoint already stored, giving the reference waypoint, and entering the distance and compass bearing to the new waypoint.

Waypoint.

Doesn’t refer to a point on a route specifically. A waypoint is a point that exists in the map database – either because it was there originally, or because you have added a new point to the database. You can include waypoints in a route, but a point in a route is not necessarily a waypoint.

Via Point.
Is used by the new generation devices to indicate a point on the route which it will insist that you visit. Unlike the old devices, if you missed a point on the route (maybe positioned incorrectly up a side road), but continued towards the purple highlighted route, the old device would continue navigating once you had reached the purple line. The new gen devices don’t. They nag you until you have been there.
Via points will show up in the data display eg as in ‘Time to Via’, ‘Distance to Via’.
The GPS will announce – visually and audibly – your approach to and your arrival at a Via Point.
The new generation devices give a list of all of the Via points on your route when you select a route to follow. But they show ONLY the Via points. It doesn’t show any other points.

Shaping Points
On the new generation devices, Shaping points appear as dots (small filled circles), on the route lists and on the map.
Shaping points are silent. They do not alert on arrival either visually or audibly.
Shaping points do not appear in the list of points presented by the new generation devices as ‘Select Next Destination’ options when the route is first loaded.
Shaping points will be ignored if they are slightly inaccurately placed but you remain on the purple route. (eg a point placed just up a side road). If recalculation is turned off, and (say) a new bypass has been built, then recalculation will continue correctly as soon as you join the purple route again. Even if the bypass missed out visiting the shaping point.
 
I've found internet discussions going back to 2010 relating to terminology. The consensus back then was via points and way points are the same, must visit points, and shaping points are would like to visit points.

The Garmin forum said:

The concepts are quite simple. It's the method of distinguishing one from the other that is likely quite subtle in the code.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

Your discription of what happens in Mapsource does not match my experience. Mapsource creates two types of points Waypoints and Via points. Your description of waypoints matches exactly what my Mapsource does. I use waypoints only for those places I want to go to, usually just my destinaton but sometimes a place along the route. As you say these waypoints are added to the database and are transfered with the route, this has the advantage that your destination exist in favorites and should there be major problems wth the route it is very easy to get the device to take you sraight there.

When I create a route I use the routing tool to drag the suggested route to suit my requirements. Every time I "drop" a mark along the route it crates a via point, these show up in "route properties" and are transfered to the device. These via points are by default, unannounced. If when plotting the route I drop a mark slightly off the road Mapsource creates a waypoint instead of a via point and displays it as green dot. If tht waypoint is required, maybe its a cafe where I am meeting friends, then in remains in my route as that waypoint because I really want to meet up. If however I was just mistake I can zoom in on the green dot and move it back onto the road. This automatically reverts it to a via point. Via points are transferred wth the route but do not get stored in favorites.

As for your comments about shaping points (apart from Way and via points) being automaticaly added to a route and transfered to the device, that does not tie in with my experience. If it did that then presumably the device would always follow the exact route as shown on Mapsource or Basecamp. We all know that simply does not happen.

John
 
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So where is my user mistake with planning route?
Personally I think it's expensive piece of shit!
 
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befeb1a9198f2cadea124c12af46c5c3.jpg


So where is my user mistake with planning route?
Personally I think it's expensive piece of shit!

Not enough info to comment on the route. If you really want an answer then you will need to expand a little, well no, a lot! Tell us what device you are using, what you used to plan the route, what setting do you have on the device and if you used planning software what settings on that. Posting the route might help too.

It will remain an "expensive piece of shit" unless you can discover what went wrong and why. In order to do that you need to be open to the suggestion that the device might just be doing what you ( however inadvertenly ) has told it to do. There is always the possibility of a machne fault but that can only be established if we can exclude all other causes. If you search this forum you will find that Garmin are usuall very good where a unit is at fault.

As I said if you really want help rather than just having a whinge, give us full details, there are enough willing helpers on here who might be able to help.

At least you might learn how to change that car for a bike:augie

John
 
From the pictures, I have no idea why the device routed you off the A458, then via Garegg Bank to take you back onto the A458 just before Criggion Lane.

As John says, it would be very helpful if you could:

1. Share the route file with us, to see if when we load it into our Garmin devices it does the same. If it's large, host it on something like DropBox, which is free and very easy to do.

2. Tell us the mapset your device is running

3. Tell us the software version your device is using

4. Tell us how you created the route. In BaseCamp, in Mapsource, in your device, in something else? If it was created some time ago, when you favoured curvey roads, tell us that, too.

5. If in something else, what software / method you used to get the route into your GPS device

6. All the preference settings of your device when you imported and displayed the route on your device

That way someone might be able to help you.

Or you can just rant on and on which becomes very dull. I can then close the thread, which will at least cut off your rantings, if only for a while.
 
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