Question about tyres for outfits

AndyB_11

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For purely road use over the summer what tyres should I use on an XT660 based outfit?

It’s currently got horribly squared off K60s on it and I’ve got a pair of Conti Trail Attacks that were on it before but with both of those the low speed handling has been a bit stressful to put it mildly.

It’s not going to be easy because it’s got a 90-90 x 21 front tyre and a 140-80 x 18 rear and I’m sorely tempted to go for a ribbed front tyre paired with the existing rear Conti that’s got plenty of tread and isn’t what I’d call an ‘aggressive’ tread pattern just to see what the ribbed tyre does for the front end shake it suffers from at low speeds.

Any suggestions from those that have actually owned outfits?
 
<snip> to see what the ribbed tyre does for the front end shake it suffers from at low speeds.

Do you have a steering damper? Mine shook dreadfully until it had a VW beetle shock absorber subtly bolted betwixt fork and sidecar chassis.
 
It’s got a GPR rotary damper fitted but if I adjust it enough to calm it down at slow speeds it’s a bastard to actually turn the bars because it’s designed for off road use which means it can flick from side to side only getting stiffer as it moves further which means that the shake never gets terminal but it’s very off putting.

There’s no way of mounting a Boge damper because the angle down from the bottom yoke to the sidecar frame is too steep.

I’ve checked the steering head bearings and they’re fine so I can’t blame them before anyone suggests changing them.
 
I always found that 'proper' bike tyres gripped and handled WAY better than square section 'sidecar' or ribbed tyres (and trust me, I've pretty much tried them all over the years).

They will wear quicker, granted, but so what they work better.

For a 21 front I'd go for Trail Attack II's.

Even a well set up outfit will get a wee head shake at around 20-30 mph but any thing more than a 'wee' shake points to set up.................

Andres
 
It’d be good if I could fit ‘proper’ tyres because I’m pretty much limited to off road with TA IIs being the closest to a road tyre I’ll get. Thinking back on it the front TA that was on it before fitting the K60s was pretty well worn out so maybe a new one will make a difference? The rear is ok so I’d only need to buy the front which minimises the cost of what would basically be an experiment.

I’m tempted to get a 19” rim laced onto the front wheel to get more choice and I’ve even considered selling WP USD forks with a Talon hub and Excel rim currently sitting at the front end and I’d have no problem getting decent cash for it to put towards a pair of leading links suitable for both on and off road.

I’d sell the fucking thing but I’ve still get stupid ideas to get out of my system :D
 
Go for the leading links , its the only way to do it properly and the handling is transformed.
 
Leading links will sort all sorts of ills.
A tyre change won't make a massive change to a tele fork equipped combo which really needs a LL front end.
That's why after using my LL equipped 750 Ural, I found and fitted a Dnepr LL front end to my 650 Ural which had telescopic forks and used to get its knickers in a twist under hard cornering/braking.

However, back to tyres.
Whatever you get, ideally you don't want too much grip on the sidecar tyre.
Certainly, for off road use you want as little sidecar tyre grip as possible, to faciliate drifting/sliding.
Even on the road, you want to be able to drift at least a bit in the wet, so don't go for an excessively grippy sidecar tyre.

I'm running both my Urals on Mitas E-05 tyres all year round now, but previously used Heidenau K37.
 
I’m going to give Wasp a call and see what they suggest regarding leading link forks and front wheel size. If I go down that route I may need to drop the front end quite a bit which will mean alter the lean in of the bike/chair but that’s easily altered though to keep the lead where it is will need a bit of thinking about and accurate sizes giving to Wasp.

It’s worth talking to them because I used their leading links on my old outfit and once the penny had finally dropped and I realised the shock on the chair was fucked everything was fine :blast
 
I'm using a mitas rear 130 section E08 on the front on an 1150RT 17" wheel and have no issues with the handling apart from a little wobble at about 20mph which is easily powered and braked through.
The rear is k60 scout, handling seems fine to me. Though I have jacked the rear up with an 1150adv shock too, so I've reduced the steering angle by about 1 degree.

The telelever front end has worked well for the outfit. The only niggle with altering the angle the bike sits at is the screen is now less effective.
For conventional forks, all the advice points to leading links.

Either that or go for a tilting set up.......
Thats my long term plan then use a hydraulic ram to lock it rigid for times when its useful to do so.
Saves all the handling compromise bollox. Just needs a new chassis for the side car and modified subframe for the bike...
On the sidecar is a 217x50x17 car tyre, but looking to reduce this to a 15" wheel to reduce the stress on the hub.
 
I’m still putting off finding out a price for a set of leading link forks but that’s purely because I need to finish off a couple of other projects before throwing money at yet another idea. New tyres is an obvious starting point then if that still leaves me with issues I’m not happy to ignore I’ll look at wheel sizes, leading links etc.
 
I’m still putting off finding out a price for a set of leading link forks but that’s purely because I need to finish off a couple of other projects before throwing money at yet another idea. New tyres is an obvious starting point then if that still leaves me with issues I’m not happy to ignore I’ll look at wheel sizes, leading links etc.

I wouldn't bother if it were me, FWIW I'm not a fan of LL forks but then again my only experience is road bikes.
I guess the XT will have a slightly kicked out trail which is a good thing but also has slightly longer forks with more travel which may mean they are less rigid than shorter road forks :nenau

Anyway, my experience is that a well set up rig doesn't need them [1] and that although the steering will be heavier there is far more front wheel feedback with teles and when using the front brake you are loading the front tyre with teles rather than unloading it as you would with LL's so, far more grip when braking hard.

So, if it were me and I really wanted to make her handle I'd invest in a decent rear shock, stiffer springs on the front with maybe slightly thicker oil and spend some time getting the set up cock on.

Andres

[1] I spent six weeks touring Europe on an XS11 /Gemini with standard forks back in the day. You don't get much heavier than that in the world of outfits and it was fine. No issues at all.
 
It’d be good if I could fit ‘proper’ tyres because I’m pretty much limited to off road with TA IIs being the closest to a road tyre I’ll get. Thinking back on it the front TA that was on it before fitting the K60s was pretty well worn out so maybe a new one will make a difference? The rear is ok so I’d only need to buy the front which minimises the cost of what would basically be an experiment.

I’m tempted to get a 19” rim laced onto the front wheel to get more choice and I’ve even considered selling WP USD forks with a Talon hub and Excel rim currently sitting at the front end and I’d have no problem getting decent cash for it to put towards a pair of leading links suitable for both on and off road.

I’d sell the fucking thing but I’ve still get stupid ideas to get out of my system :D

Always found that modding bikes that have a problem, leads to another problem, I always try to get the bike as close to stock as possible, and fix the real problems if they still exist, and then mod after, obviously my only experience is with Harleys and Triumphs, other bikes I left stock.
 
I’m still putting off finding out a price for a set of leading link forks .
I had in my head about £1,500 for a set not sure how realistic that is or where it came from, just one of those splinters that sticks in your mind.

About what mph range does the shake occur over?

Just a thought...have you increased the preload?
 
So, if it were me and I really wanted to make her handle I'd invest in a decent rear shock, stiffer springs on the front with maybe slightly thicker oil and spend some time getting the set up cock on.

It’s got a decent shock on the back (Ohlins) with a heavier rated spring fitted but I’ve yet to try messing with the rebound settings.

It’s got WP forks which aren’t going to flex but would certainly benefit from thicker oil and then probably try playing with preload and rebound though I’m not convinced that it’s a setting up issue with the suspension because it steers ok and it’s only got this shake appears in a certain low speed range. It might be worth moving the fork stanchions up in the yokes which I can do by about 20mm but these are all things to try one at a time then in varying combinations :nenau

I’m happy with the sidecar set up and the suspension on that is brand new so no wear to con me into trying everything else when there’s an easy fix available.

The reason for me asking about tyres in the first instance is that as they squared off the handling improved so tyre profile made a big impact and being limited in my choice of tyres means I need to find other ways to work around the issue or change at least the rims on the wheels so I’ve got more options. I did look for different wheels but failed to find any so it might be time to look again.
 
Hmmm.

If the situation is improving with a flatter profile tyre im more inclined to try dropping the yokes. A k60 is a pretty thick tyre at the centre so you would be getting a fractional reduction in trail which is what your after
 
Just looked back at one of my other posts in the outfits section which has reminded me the bar shaking only occurs when im carrying a pillion as well as a passenger in the chair, so thus changing the steering angle and hence trail.
 
Just looked back at one of my other posts in the outfits section which has reminded me the bar shaking only occurs when im carrying a pillion as well as a passenger in the chair, so thus changing the steering angle and hence trail.

I guess that means that it’s worth dropping the forks a bit. I’ll try anything whether I can understand why it might work or not because even if I end up selling it I want to know I’ve sorted it out.
 
I would say so. I think 1/2" increments, i think potentially you will need to drop them about 1.5". Could you also fit a taller profile rear?
 
I would say so. I think 1/2" increments, i think potentially you will need to drop them about 1.5". Could you also fit a taller profile rear?

I’ve got a maximum of 20mm they can be dropped because of the shape of the forks (they’re USD type) so that’s it. Fitting a taller rear tyre would be difficult because of the limited choices but I can make a new set of links for the rear suspension that will lift the back end by at least another 20mm if I want to, in fact I’ve got a couple of sets of different length ones in the workshop so it’s simply a case of picking the right ones, removing a pair of bolts and fit them. I say simply but because of the rather substantial chunk of plastic and steel on the LH side it’d involve losing a fair amount of skin off my knuckles but it can be done.
 


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