Vosages and Black Forest in a day?

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RikPing

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Hi after a little advice, meeting up with friends in Belgium for a weekend, after which I have 3 days off and must be back in work in the UK by Thursday. I intend to ride down to the Vosages staying over night in Saint-Dié-des-Vosges Sunday night. Then riding the Vosages (Route des Crepes) North to South to Cernay(ish) and then the Black Forest South to North (B500 ish) on Monday. I am flexible on routes but not on times.
Is the Vosages and Black Forest doable in a day or am I pushing it? I have been caught out before overestimating times on my route planning!
 
Easy
I can do Zeebrugge port to Freiburg (bottom of BForest) easily from 9am to 5pm via autoroute to Nancy from Belgie, then over the tops via St Marie aux Mines
About 450 miles from Zeebrugge so you will be less
He who travels alone travels farthest ....and fastest
Over 3 days your route is a piece of piss but you will have to motorway to Nancy to get to St Die and on last day from Baden Baden (top of B500) to get back to Channel

I also did a similar route to bottom of Route de Cretes last September easily from Zeebrugge in a 5pm day to a hotel in that area

That left me 2 days to explore that area

If you get down to St Die area on Sunday night by blasting the auto route then you can have Monday in Vosges area, stop somewhere on French side and then cross the Rhine and spend Tuesday in Black Forest area exploring and then stay up near Baden Baden on Tuesday night and then cross northern France back to channel on Weds and cross for home ready for work on Thursday morning
 
I have been caught out before overestimating times on my route planning!

Does your previous experience tell you that you’ll be able to do it, in the time period you’ve given yourself?
 
Thanks Johnny, that helps much appreciated.
Wapping, calculating time/distance on main routes usually works out ok, but as for mountainous terrain things become a little trickier to guestimate. Hence asking 'helpful' members of this site who have done similar routes previously.
 
Yes very doable. Route des Cretes (crest, not pancake) from St Marie aux Mines to Cernay is under 70 miles so you will have plenty of time to explore some of the other wonderful roads in the Vosges on Monday (or do the RdeC in reverse as the views are different).

Tuesday in the Black Forest.

From Belgium, there is a good route via Luxembourg to get to the Vosges. Benefit of no tolls on the roads. You could also use this route to get back to the Channel port of your choice.
I rode from Ashchurch via the Tunnel to Haguenau using this route to start a Euro tour - Hotel les Pins is nice and a possible overnight stop on the way home after your day in the Black Forest. Easy to get back up to Lux or just get on the French A4, whichever you prefer for Wednesday.

Quaint and free ferry across the Rhine to get from Baden Baden to Haguenau https://goo.gl/maps/RDF78o8b5xv near Drusenheim
 
Thanks Johnny, that helps much appreciated.
Wapping, calculating time/distance on main routes usually works out ok, but as for mountainous terrain things become a little trickier to guestimate. Hence asking 'helpful' members of this site who have done similar routes previously.

You have to mix a bit if both
Motorway across the 'flat lands' to get to the best bits
As for Cols and mountains estimate a 20 mph average as a rough guess as opposed to 50-60mph average on motorways

1 km on a mountain is equivalent to 5km on the valley floor
 
As for Cols and mountains estimate a 20 mph average

30mph should be easy enough, I can manage a 30mph+ average two up in "touring mode", even the Mrs managed that kind of average on much tighter Alpine passes just a year after passing her test. The Vosges might be low 30's, the B500 is far more flowing, 40mph average along here should be about right.

Google Maps gives a decent idea of times, we can always beat them in good weather and light - moderate traffic.

My rough guide is:-

Mountains = 30 mph (Alpine Passes / Single track roads etc)
Back Roads = 40 mph (Minor but 2-way roads like UK B Roads and faster unclassified roads)
Main roads = 45 mph (like UK A Roads)
Motorways = 60+ mph (Depending on Country, Frances deserted Motorways and 81 mph limit (85 on speedo) allows us to average mid - high 60's after slowing for tolls booths and entering / exiting services etc.

Plus stops, I reckon on 1.5 - 2 hours for stops and aim for a max of six hours in the saddle, your trip sound do-able to me.
 
Wapping, calculating time/distance on main routes usually works out ok, but as for mountainous terrain things become a little trickier to guestimate. Hence asking 'helpful' members of this site who have done similar routes previously.

The Vosges and the Black Forest are not mountainous terrain.

The truth is, only you know how fast you’ll ride (and on which roads) between Belgium / your destination(s) and back again to your ferry and home. In an extreme case, we went from Budapest to London in a day, so your journey will be a stroll..... or not.
 
30mph should be easy enough

I can manage a 30mph+ average two up in "touring mode", even the Mrs managed that kind of average on much tighter Alpine passes just a year after passing her test.

The Vosges might be low 30's

My rough guide is:-

Mountains = 30 mph (Alpine Passes / Single track roads

I disagree

I was talking a journey average for route planning purposes at 20mph for Alpine routes and traversing
Not set in tablets of stone - just a rough guess from 30 years of touring abroad and includes stopping for snacks,getting stuck behind dawdling traffic/looking at awesome views and picture taking

Mountain riding is not just simply getting from A to B
 
Last year I did Baden Baden to home (near Gatwick) in a day. Went via France, Luxembourg and Belgium to Euro Tunnel and then home. Depends on what bike you have really and if you are comfortable doing the 490 (or more) miles.
 
Thanks fellas, I agree with both it is difficult to judge Speed/Distance/Time from a map on differing terrain/roads. As Johnny says other aspects of weather, snacks, roadside prostitutes etc. all adds to the time. I was hoping to do both Vosages and Black Forest on the same day without pushing it too much and rather not have the 12 hour motorway blast home to Cheshire on the last day.

Smogbob , I will bear Kayserberg in mind, looking on Google maps I can see why you like it. It reminds me of Meersburg in Germany where I stayed last year.
 
The Vosges and the Black Forest are not mountainous terrain.

The truth is, only you know how fast you’ll ride (and on which roads) between Belgium / your destination(s) and back again to your ferry and home. In an extreme case, we went from Budapest to London in a day, so your journey will be a stroll..... or not.

Wapping, again very helpful thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vosges
 
Thanks fellas, I agree with both it is difficult to judge Speed/Distance/Time from a map on differing terrain/roads. As Johnny says other aspects of weather, snacks, roadside prostitutes etc. all adds to the time. I was hoping to do both Vosages and Black Forest on the same day without pushing it too much and rather not have the 12 hour motorway blast home to Cheshire on the last day.

Smogbob , I will bear Kayserberg in mind, looking on Google maps I can see why you like it. It reminds me of Meersburg in Germany where I stayed last year.

You can certainly do the Route des Cretes after breakfast and get over to Titisee for lunch. Then ride the B500 up to Baden Baden before tea time. This would allow you to have an overnight stop on the way home somewhere like Reims or Ipres depending on which route you take back home. Personally, I would spend a day and a half in either Vosges or Black Forest (actually it would be the Vosges every time staying in Kaysersberg). After lunch on the 2nd day I would then head north and spend a night in one of my favoured overnight spots e.g. Hotel l'Abbaye in Beaulieu en Argonne, not far from Verdun. Easy ride home from there.
 
My rough guide is:-

Mountains = 30 mph (Alpine Passes / Single track roads etc)
Back Roads = 40 mph (Minor but 2-way roads like UK B Roads and faster unclassified roads)
Main roads = 45 mph (like UK A Roads)
Motorways = 60+ mph (Depending on Country, Frances deserted Motorways and 81 mph limit (85 on speedo) allows us to average mid - high 60's after slowing for tolls booths and entering / exiting services etc.

Plus stops, I reckon on 1.5 - 2 hours for stops and aim for a max of six hours in the saddle.....

My ‘real world’ estimates and ‘stops and aims’ would near enough match Rasher’s. It highlights the difficulty of answering bods’ questions, like, “Will I be able to do it?” or in this case:

Is the Vosages and Black Forest doable in a day or am I pushing it? I have been caught out before overestimating times on my route planning!

The truth is the Vosges and Black Forest are huge areas, bods sometimes go there for a week just to ride the roads. But the answer is, yes, you can zip through both just followining Wessie’s suggestion or something similar. How you then go about it and how you join (route together) the two regions to Belgium - on the outward leg - and to your home for the return leg are up to you.

You know the sort of roads / geography you rode to under estimate your journey time significantly last time. We don’t know you - or the journey you made - so we can’t even start to guess how it was you made your error. Maybe you just went too slowly for too long or perhaps your estimate was stupidly over optimistic in the first place, who knows? Get a map or two and compare the roads / distances with those that you (not us) screwed up on last time or just pump the lot into Google maps for a rough idea; you’ll then get a half decent clue and (hopefully) enough idea about yourself to know if your aim to:

I was hoping to do both Vosages and Black Forest on the same day without pushing it too much and rather not have the 12 hour motorway blast home to Cheshire on the last day.

is achievable. Not least, you’ll know what ‘without pushing it too much’ means in your world. If it means getting out of bed at 10:30 AM, a stroll to your bike, a relaxed fuel up 30 minutes after you’ve set off, a tea stop, numerous picture stops and / or fag breaks, lunch, a chill with a coffee in the afternoon - along with the obligatory picture and cigarette breaks - and to to be rolling into Baden-Baden by 15:45, bimbling along inbetween - all without getting lost or being forced onto a detour once - you might be disappointed.

PS The Vosges and Black Forest are not mountainous in the sense of the Alps. If you expect them to be you’ll be in for a disappointment. Some of the Alpine D type roads - even those up the hairpins - are ‘faster’ than some of the gnarly cross forest D roads.... but not if you’ve stopped at every hairpin on the Alpine road to take a picture and admire the views. If it lashes with rain or it’s foggy / misty down to 10 meters or less (as it sometimes can be) it’ll be slower, that’s for sure. You’ll know for sure on the day.

In short, you look again at your opening post and you work out if you can go Belgium, Vosges, Black Forest, back to the Channel, across / under the waves and back to home in Cheshire (to be in time for work) within your timeframe and avoiding the last motorway slog for 12 hours to home on your last day.....
 
... If it means getting out of bed at 10:30 AM, a stroll to your bike, a relaxed fuel up 30 minutes after you’ve set off, a tea stop, numerous picture stops and / or fag breaks, lunch, a chill with a coffee in the afternoon - along with the obligatory picture and cigarette breaks - and to to be rolling into Baden-Baden by 15:45, bimbling along inbetween - all without getting lost or being forced onto a detour once - you might be disappointed.....


This is the real algorithm for time and distance, not so much 'how fast do you ride your bike mate'.

In your favour RikPing is that you are travelling alone, and you haven't got a pillion or other biker mates to refuel, pee, want coffee etc.

I remember being on a tour many, many years ago, and there was a scottish lass (fairly new to biking) with us. (I say with us ... the whole set up was 'heres the hotel .. see you there .... travel with who you want at the pace you want .. '). She was pitching up at 9pm most nights and scratching her head as to how we could have got there at 5 pm. Turns out she was stopping every hour for a coffee, then gas ... at lunch time she was coming off the route and into a nearby town (thats 20 minutes) taking an hour for lunch, back on route (another 20 mins) and so on. She was probably spending three or four hours of the day just faffing about :D

A top tip for increased time/distance averages is to get a packed lunch first thing in the morning before you set off. Maybe even take a coffee brew kit with you. That way you can pull up anywhere you want (still 'on route'), make a brew, break into that lovely fresh bread, pate and sausage, and then be back on the move ... probably in the same amount of time that it would have taken just to catch a waitresses eye ... :thumb2
 
This is the real algorithm for time and distance, not so much 'how fast do you ride your bike mate'.

In your favour RikPing is that you are travelling alone, and you haven't got a pillion or other biker mates to refuel, pee, want coffee etc.

I remember being on a tour many, many years ago, and there was a scottish lass (fairly new to biking) with us. (I say with us ... the whole set up was 'heres the hotel .. see you there .... travel with who you want at the pace you want .. '). She was pitching up at 9pm most nights and scratching her head as to how we could have got there at 5 pm. Turns out she was stopping every hour for a coffee, then gas ... at lunch time she was coming off the route and into a nearby town (thats 20 minutes) taking an hour for lunch, back on route (another 20 mins) and so on. She was probably spending three or four hours of the day just faffing about :D

A top tip for increased time/distance averages is to get a packed lunch first thing in the morning before you set off. Maybe even take a coffee brew kit with you. That way you can pull up anywhere you want (still 'on route'), make a brew, break into that lovely fresh bread, pate and sausage, re-sharpen the knife you made lunch with and then be back on the move ... probably in the same amount of time that it would have taken just to catch a waitresses eye ... :thumb2

You forgot.....:D
 
This is the real algorithm for time and distance, not so much 'how fast do you ride your bike mate'.

It really is... though it does help if you ring its neck during the rare occasions when the bike’s wheels are actually moving forwards in the right direction.

I have my GPS device set up to display estimated arrival time and remaining distance to destination all the time. It’s interesting to watch the mileage left reduce by every mile you move forward but the time to arrive change (sometimes quite dramatically) as the day progresses.

Cutting your cloth accordingly is also quite a good metric to use. If I really wanted to ‘do the Vosges and Black Forest’ I’d maybe accept that 12 hours up a motorway in the UK was acceptable as a trade off. It’s no different to bods blasting across France and Germany from Calais, in order to hit the Alps, all within their timeframe and idea of a good holiday.
 
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