Hilltop - is it worth it?

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Engineer. You have not had your bike done!
Therefore you can spoutcas much bollox as you want but you are not in a position to comment on its effectiveness of not.

My standard bike is being done soon and I will advise.

The bottom line at least a thousand plus bikes have been done and all apart from one or two have been happy. Then there is repeat custom.

Says it all. Stop being a biased uninitiated pratt

Where did I comment on its effectiveness?
 
Engineer. You have not had your bike done!
Therefore you can spoutcas much bollox as you want but you are not in a position to comment on its effectiveness of not.

My standard bike is being done soon and I will advise.

The bottom line at least a thousand plus bikes have been done and all apart from one or two have been happy. Then there is repeat custom.

Says it all. Stop being a biased uninitiated pratt
How do you know has not been initiated

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Good God we are all grown ups you either choose to spend your money at Hilltop or not.
Why does this topic always turn into a “my dick is bigger than yours “ session?

People always get angry and fight back with insults when their faith is questioned - why? because they start to doubt their faith and it makes them very uncomfortable.
 
People always get angry and fight back with insults when their faith is questioned - why? because they start to doubt their faith and it makes them very uncomfortable.

You seem to have conveniently ignored that some of us (including myself and also Giles) have had our bikes dyno'd at other independent facilities and the results were very close to what was achieved at Hilltop after Geoff had worked on them.

I had my GS checked out by guys who run a race team and what was particularly interesting was the comment from the technician who did several dyno runs on my bike. His words were "I don't know what you've had done to this bike but the fuelling is spot on right through the Rev range and I can't do anything to improve on it. It's also pulling like a train from low down and is really well sorted."

So not a question of faith for me, it's more like I took my bike to a very talented and knowledgeable guy who's done a brilliant job on it! That's why he gets such excellent feedback from the vast majority of his customers!
 
You seem to have conveniently ignored that some of us (including myself and also Giles) have had our bikes dyno'd at other independent facilities and the results were very close to what was achieved at Hilltop after Geoff had worked on them.

I had my GS checked out by guys who run a race team and what was particularly interesting was the comment from the technician who did several dyno runs on my bike. His words were "I don't know what you've had done to this bike but the fuelling is spot on right through the Rev range and I can't do anything to improve on it. It's also pulling like a train from low down and is really well sorted."

So not a question of faith for me, it's more like I took my bike to a very talented and knowledgeable guy who's done a brilliant job on it! That's why he gets such excellent feedback from the vast majority of his customers!

I don’t doubt that one can make improvements in some areas by changing shift in focus of the inevitable engineering compromises.

The faith stuff is the resulting belief that this is some kind of genius stuff that BMW can’t do when in fact all the tuner does is ignore many of the constraints to peak up the performance in a few areas. Fine if you are happy with that but I like to know what the whole picture is, not just part of it - and it has proved to be really difficult to get any sort of facts about this.

When people start quoting AFR figures with no conditions and believing that there is something horribly wrong with the bike that only ‘the genius’ can fix it all turns from facts to faith healing.
 
I don’t doubt that one can make improvements in some areas by changing shift in focus of the inevitable engineering compromises.

The faith stuff is the resulting belief that this is some kind of genius stuff that BMW can’t do when in fact all the tuner does is ignore many of the constraints to peak up the performance in a few areas. Fine if you are happy with that but I like to know what the whole picture is, not just part of it - and it has proved to be really difficult to get any sort of facts about this.

When people start quoting AFR figures with no conditions and believing that there is something horribly wrong with the bike that only ‘the genius’ can fix it all turns from facts to faith healing.
I made a general statement about how lean my gsa was, it is fair to say that overall, this engine does run leaner compared to other manufacturers.

I have never at anytime suggest that Hilltop are, to use your own words geniuses. I have no doubts that lots of other tuners could achieve similar results, IF they decide to go down that route, by spending the time and money.

In the same way, I wouldn't take a 997 gt3 to bbr but went to Ruf or a Cosworth to Ruf but to bbr. Each good in their own way, neither better or worse, just more relevant expertise and knowledge.

The question relates to spending your own money getting work done by hilltop, you choose not too, which is your right.

I spent almost £19k on my rr (or only £10k to swmbo) do I criticise and attack your choice of bike purchase, or the helmet you wear. It is my monies to spend as I see fit.

Your opinion and views, about Hilltop are well aired. Others, more suitably qualified than I, may wish to suggest seeking professional help.

I am remind of a story, where the head of apple was criticising the diet of the head of lotus software at lunch.

He made this observation, don't criticis my eating habits and I won't criticis about your personality.

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Engineer. You have not had your bike done!
Therefore you can spoutcas much bollox as you want but you are not in a position to comment on its effectiveness of not.

My standard bike is being done soon and I will advise.

The bottom line at least a thousand plus bikes have been done and all apart from one or two have been happy. Then there is repeat custom.

Says it all. Stop being a biased uninitiated pratt
Interesting choice of word.
I'm thinking more and more this is some kind of quasi-religious thing.
 
I made a general statement about how lean my gsa was, it is fair to say that overall, this engine does run leaner compared to other manufacturers.

I have never at anytime suggest that Hilltop are, to use your own words geniuses. I have no doubts that lots of other tuners could achieve similar results, IF they decide to go down that route, by spending the time and money.

In the same way, I wouldn't take a 997 gt3 to bbr but went to Ruf or a Cosworth to Ruf but to bbr. Each good in their own way, neither better or worse, just more relevant expertise and knowledge.

The question relates to spending your own money getting work done by hilltop, you choose not too, which is your right.

I spent almost £19k on my rr (or only £10k to swmbo) do I criticise and attack your choice of bike purchase, or the helmet you wear. It is my monies to spend as I see fit.

Your opinion and views, about Hilltop are well aired. Others, more suitably qualified than I, may wish to suggest seeking professional help.

I am remind of a story, where the head of apple was criticising the diet of the head of lotus software at lunch.

He made this observation, don't criticis my eating habits and I won't criticis about your personality.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

I am not sure that I understood any of that rambling post other than the GS apparently runs lean, but so what? it is the compromise BMW chose.
 
I am not sure that I understood any of that rambling post other than the GS apparently runs lean, but so what? it is the compromise BMW chose.

No it’s the compromise forced on the manufacturer by legislation.
 
Legislation defines the bounds within which all the manufacturers work, we know that.

And in BMWs case results in a fairly old engine design running poorly.
An optimisation of software can correct that poor running.
Some people accept poor running and do nothing about it, others however search for solutions.
 
Best tuning mod is to polish your seat.
Then when you accelerate you slide back.

Immediately thinking your bike is now faster.
 
Best tuning mod is to polish your seat.
Then when you accelerate you slide back.

Immediately thinking your bike is now faster.

Or do as I did. I mistakenly sprayed the arse area of my textiles with Nikwax waterproofing spray - same effect!
 
And in BMWs case results in a fairly old engine design running poorly.
An optimisation of software can correct that poor running.
Some people accept poor running and do nothing about it, others however search for solutions.

Allow me to disagree to that statement.

The LC engine was launched with the 2013 models, and compared to the competitors, it is the newest engine. (I might be wrong, but as I understand it, Ducati, Ktm, and Thriuph newest engines are based on modified older engines).

True, the engine would benefit from a richer mixture, but BMW as well as any other manufacturer are restricted by legislation. They keep improving within the boundery set upon them and I understand that the latest versions of software the engine performs fairly well.

Even so, a bit of richer mixture would still make a sweeter running engine, and that's where 3-part mods enters the arena.
Hilltop is one of them, AF-XIED is another option.

Most of the claims regarding the improvements are actually made by the owner of the bikes. Hilltop them selves are fairly moderate in their description.
And frankly, as long as the only modification you do to an engine is adding fuel, the result will at best be modest when it comes to gain in power. However, the way the engine behaves may be felt as lots more. The lean running makes the engine vibrate slightly, and it chokes easier at low rpms. To many riders this improvement alone may be worth it.

It is my humble opinion that Hilltop and AF-XIED does pretty much the same to the engine for all practical purpose. The cost are fairly the same, the difference being that the HT-job does it internally and AF-XIED is an external ad on.

So, now that I make such a bold claim as comparing the HT to another product, am I suicidal? Allow me to explain before hell brakes loose.

HT claims that the engine is still able to adapt to different cans and set-ups. This means that O2 sensor is still in use. And as long as the O2 is considered, the modification to engine managment must modify the suggested correction from O2 in order to add more fuel, as is the case with AF-XIED.

In order to make a dramatic change to the behaviour the airflow through the engine needs to be changed, and both options above only affects the fuel. Sure, ignition may be affected as richer fuel burns faster and thus a slightly change of timing as the mixture changes may do well. But we are taking small changes here. Remember the HT job is clamed to improve the gas-milage, and that excludes heavy changes.

What about the Dyno-charts before-after?
Well, some of the guys have been kind enough to share they Dyno-charts. The thing is though, all the after-charts that I've seen shows pretty much what you may read from dynocharts made by others (plenty of them on the net), while the before-charts shows ridiculously low output. Again, I will remind you of the claim from HT that the gain in power will at best be modest, it's all about how the engine behaves better from getting slightly more fuel. I can not explain the low before-output, as it does not make sense.

That's my saying :beerjug:
Shoot!
 
You make good sense. Further, while the how-does-it-work question is opaque in the case of Hilltop, it is transparent for the AF-XIED. And when you buy a new BMW, you can take the XIED with you but the Hilltop gets left behind.
 
Is Donald Trump the best President the USA has ever had?


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......................
Well, some of the guys have been kind enough to share they Dyno-charts. The thing is though, all the after-charts that I've seen shows pretty much what you may read from dynocharts made by others (plenty of them on the net), while the before-charts shows ridiculously low output. Again, I will remind you of the claim from HT that the gain in power will at best be modest, it's all about how the engine behaves better from getting slightly more fuel. I can not explain the low before-output, as it does not make sense.

That's my saying :beerjug:
Shoot!

I was one of those 'kind enough' to post before and after dyno charts.

My 'before' chart did not show a ridiculously low reading on BHP or torque. In fact I'd go so far as to say that it pretty much mirrored that of charts available to view on the web of 'stock' outputs and was pretty much what I'd expect.

To say that all of Hilltop's 'before' runs posted up here show ridiculously low outputs is to slag off Hilltop by proxy. Why not link to the evidence?

My 'after' chart showed a healthy increase but nothing dramatic. Far more important was the smoother and fatter mid range curve. Both things that give a much nicer ride and could/still can be felt by 'the seat of my pants'.

Andres
 
Allow me to disagree to that statement.

The LC engine was launched with the 2013 models, and compared to the competitors, it is the newest engine. (I might be wrong, but as I understand it, Ducati, Ktm, and Thriuph newest engines are based on modified older engines).

True, the engine would benefit from a richer mixture, but BMW as well as any other manufacturer are restricted by legislation. They keep improving within the boundery set upon them and I understand that the latest versions of software the engine performs fairly well.

Even so, a bit of richer mixture would still make a sweeter running engine, and that's where 3-part mods enters the arena.
Hilltop is one of them, AF-XIED is another option.

Most of the claims regarding the improvements are actually made by the owner of the bikes. Hilltop them selves are fairly moderate in their description.
And frankly, as long as the only modification you do to an engine is adding fuel, the result will at best be modest when it comes to gain in power. However, the way the engine behaves may be felt as lots more. The lean running makes the engine vibrate slightly, and it chokes easier at low rpms. To many riders this improvement alone may be worth it.

It is my humble opinion that Hilltop and AF-XIED does pretty much the same to the engine for all practical purpose. The cost are fairly the same, the difference being that the HT-job does it internally and AF-XIED is an external ad on.

So, now that I make such a bold claim as comparing the HT to another product, am I suicidal? Allow me to explain before hell brakes loose.

HT claims that the engine is still able to adapt to different cans and set-ups. This means that O2 sensor is still in use. And as long as the O2 is considered, the modification to engine managment must modify the suggested correction from O2 in order to add more fuel, as is the case with AF-XIED.

In order to make a dramatic change to the behaviour the airflow through the engine needs to be changed, and both options above only affects the fuel. Sure, ignition may be affected as richer fuel burns faster and thus a slightly change of timing as the mixture changes may do well. But we are taking small changes here. Remember the HT job is clamed to improve the gas-milage, and that excludes heavy changes.

What about the Dyno-charts before-after?
Well, some of the guys have been kind enough to share they Dyno-charts. The thing is though, all the after-charts that I've seen shows pretty much what you may read from dynocharts made by others (plenty of them on the net), while the before-charts shows ridiculously low output. Again, I will remind you of the claim from HT that the gain in power will at best be modest, it's all about how the engine behaves better from getting slightly more fuel. I can not explain the low before-output, as it does not make sense.

That's my saying :beerjug:
Shoot!
The saying goes, more than one way to skin a cat.

As someone has been disingenuous in his understandings of what I have said. I shall attempt to clarify.

There are lots of tuners, who if they replicated the effort that HT have done over the years, can in all likelihood produce similar results.

I went to Tony Scott about tuning my vfkr, as he was the acknowledged V4 expert, no disrespect to HT but why would I ask them.

When I ran Cosworths I used bbr, then with the 997 I used Ruf, each experts in their own areas. I wouldn't take a cosworth to Ruf.

Hopefully we all acknowledge that the boxer is limited by emissions and noise levels, and probably the easiest/cheapest way for bmw to resolve it was by leaning the fuelling. Obviously there are different ways of resolving this, mainly extra fuel !!!

A richer fuel mixture burns slower, if all things are equal, compared to a leaner mixture. In the same way, if you increase the octane rating or ftar, you'll get more power from your engine.

It is fair to say, as HT claim, you should see an improvement in fuel consumption, the problem is we use the extra performance instead.

Rather than focusing on what the peak bhp is, it is the area under the graph that counts, remember rms ?

It is about driveability, flexible pickup and smoothness. This is subjective to not only the bike but also the rider. My gsa can hold a higher gear and is smoother with a heavy load (swmbo) than pre HT. Maybe mine was a vibrating pile of shit pre HT and made it the same as your magnificent steed has always been, perhaps I have higher expectations than you. Who knows.

Am I happy with my decision to use HT, yes. Unlike some of the heretic deniers that abound here; I am open minded, accept that there are other options and solutions to resolving this problem.

So, if you're happy with the decision that you made relating to your bike and how you ride it; great. If however you feel the need to chant your mantra at others, do us all a favour. Fuck off and die.

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