Hilltop - is it worth it?
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I doubt it.
In real life, BHP on the road to actual performance advantage it'll make no difference. It'll just feel faster.
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If, I get ahead of your bike, is it because my bikes faster or that I'm a riding god; subjectively
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If you mean they both richen the mixture then yes...but that is very broad comparison.
An XIED will just make a bad map richer across the whole spectrum, in some places the mixture will still be relatively too rich in others relatively too lean it's a blunt instrument.
A remap, gives a good map across the rev range that achieves the ideal AFR everywhere, also the XIED has no capacity to affect ignition timing. A remap can change that and other settings. Though I don't know exactly what HT do with their maps.
In that regard they are very, very different.
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If, I get ahead of your bike, is it because my bikes faster or that I'm a riding god; subjectively
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Both.
In my competative racing head car days it would have bothered me, but not any more.
I'm out with my mates to have fun on our bikes, not to be the fastest. None of us are wide open throttle all the time.
Just quick pace and fun.
Then again,with the amount of munitions your barge is packing, I would have thought it would need a triple turbo and supercharger just to get into second gear.......
I may have misunderstood, but I thought that Hilltop's whole point is that what they do isn't a remap
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Correct, they just replace BMW’s compromised software with a different compromised software.
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Thats my point though, even with all that crap bolted to my bike its still fast enough to keep pace with any one of my mates on Adventure bikes.
The group is well suited and a Hilltop remap wouldn't change a thing.
It's a £350 rider brain remap thats all.
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I think you have misunderstood slightly, it definitely has a remap as part of it...but it's not just a remap that is an oversimplification.
I'm very much a fan for tuning engines and remaps, so don't take this the wrong way, I'm just calling it as I see it from someone who's spent a bit of time figuring out how to "map" an ECU from scratch, I also had a car remapped to suit some fast road cams, was very happy with the result.
In simple terms, the ECU is like a big excel workbook with loads of pages, in each of the cells is an entry for fuel injector pulse width and all sorts of other "settings". This is the fundamentals of how an ECU works and you cant avoid that.
Some "mappers"...will just increase the injector pulse width to run richer...which is a crude "remap" for older/simpler injection systems, which is fine for ECU's that don't have "intelligence" built in.
This next bit applies to the 1150 onwards and other makes.
The modern ECU also has the ability to learn and make adaptions to the map through sensor feedback, primarily for emissions control to maintain a lean AFR.
So, with a modern ECU there is no point just changing the data in cells, it would get overwritten in no time - say 50-100 miles.
You have to actually change/disable the intelligence as well, the base fuel maps (Injector pulse width spreadsheets) quite often need a changing for optimum running i.e. richer AFR and to iron out lean /flat spots, and then change the target AFR to (illustratively) 13.9 rather 14.5 AFR to keep the improvement.
Edit: most modern ECU's will monitor exhaust emissions and will adjust the map on the fly to suit known as Lambda correction.
There also needs to be calculations done within the ECU to correct for altitude and air temperature which affect density which affects AFR, among many other things, these may also need to be adjusted.
So, in that regard yes, to call what HT do a "remap" is kind of underselling what they have to do, but what they are ultimately doing is altering the injector pulse widths (and possibly ignition maps) manually and ensuring the ECU doesn't undo their work, they have to make that manual change to get the instant improvement you see on the dyno, that is unavoidable, otherwise you'd have a running in period of a good few hundred miles or so in a variety of conditions to allow the intelligence to do its thing
I'm happy to hold my hands up at this point and say I don't know exactly and all they do in their "magic" but there are some basic principles that can't be avoided.
Edit: To accomplish these changes, I suspect that they have a copy of the OEM ECU software that they have edited and are then uploading to overwrite the original. This would allow them to install new basemaps with better data and install revised algorithms.
By comparison, the XIED on the 1150 et al, simply shifted the O2 concentration that the ECU's thinks its getting and allows the ECU intelligence to alter the fuel maps itself.
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Is this an apocryphal tale, or not?
Hypothetically, just suppose that someone has been creating bike forum identities for years to promote his “remapping” service on many different forums. Suppose this is a long con and over the next year or two he posts 30-50 short, simple comments on other threads to validate himself as a bona fide forum member. Then he starts a thread asking if anyone else thinks that a particular bike has a snatchy throttle or suffers from ‘surging’. Sometimes he asks whether anyone has heard of a place called “Hilltop”. At other times he begins a thread with a full blown testimonial for the amazing transformation from his “remapping” (including the cost and a link to his website!). Bike forum posts of this style and nature don’t exist for any other tuner. Different members on different forums use the same phrases; “he’s a great bloke”, “he knows his stuff”, “Hilltop, they’re the experts” and lately “Hilltop magic”.
Maybe he also chimes in as another forum member he has set up (usually this one has fewer posts) who validates and agrees with the ‘magic’ of his “remapping” service on their bike. Perhaps this is often supplemented with veiled references to BSB bikes, BMW dealership recommendations and pdfs of dyno charts showing (impossible) power gains of 20% or more achieved with only 30-40 minutes between dyno pulls.
Anyone who thinks that nobody would put so much time and effort into this, remember that this hypothetical “tuner” earns £500 an hour for an invisible, undetectable service. In fact it is entirely legitimate to assert that he does nothing at all - nobody can prove otherwise. To make his service completely undetectable in all respects he may also claim that power increases won’t show up on any dyno other than his own!
So, here you have a service that people don’t understand, that they really want to believe works, which ‘apparently everybody else on the internet’ thinks is marvellous, but which nobody can prove exists at all.
Don’t you just love the internet.
Hypothetically, just suppose that someone has been creating bike forum identities for years to promote his “remapping” service on many different forums. Suppose this is a long con and over the next year or two he posts 30-50 short, simple comments on other threads to validate himself as a bona fide forum member. Then he starts a thread asking if anyone else thinks that a particular bike has a snatchy throttle or suffers from ‘surging’. Sometimes he asks whether anyone has heard of a place called “Hilltop”. At other times he begins a thread with a full blown testimonial for the amazing transformation from his “remapping” (including the cost and a link to his website!). Bike forum posts of this style and nature don’t exist for any other tuner. Different members on different forums use the same phrases; “he’s a great bloke”, “he knows his stuff”, “Hilltop, they’re the experts” and lately “Hilltop magic”.
Maybe he also chimes in as another forum member he has set up (usually this one has fewer posts) who validates and agrees with the ‘magic’ of his “remapping” service on their bike. Perhaps this is often supplemented with veiled references to BSB bikes, BMW dealership recommendations and pdfs of dyno charts showing (impossible) power gains of 20% or more achieved with only 30-40 minutes between dyno pulls.
Anyone who thinks that nobody would put so much time and effort into this, remember that this hypothetical “tuner” earns £500 an hour for an invisible, undetectable service. In fact it is entirely legitimate to assert that he does nothing at all - nobody can prove otherwise. To make his service completely undetectable in all respects he may also claim that power increases won’t show up on any dyno other than his own!
So, here you have a service that people don’t understand, that they really want to believe works, which ‘apparently everybody else on the internet’ thinks is marvellous, but which nobody can prove exists at all.
Don’t you just love the internet.
1) Have you stopped taking your meds again ?
2) Do you wear a tin foil hat ?
3) Why are you allowed unsupervised use of the internet ?
4) why do you come over as such an annoying c*nt ?
Next you'll claim Liddle Donnie Trump is real, that Rees-Moogy face won the referendum and your planet has a pink sky.
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Wrong.
Take unmodifed bike, and stick a gas analyser up it's exhaust pipe!
Check levels at varying RPM's
Modify bike,
Reanalyse..note lower O2, elevated CO2 and probably elevated CO and HC's.
Evidence of running richer ta dah!
Take to separate independent Dyno prior to being "HT'd" then go to HT alllow them to work their magic, then return to same independant Dyno to veryify.
Ta dah!
Proof.
Just for avoidance of doubt over bias my bike hasn't been to HT either, probably wont, but not because I don't think it works.
Indeed, so easy to prove one way or the other.
And yet, and yet . . . .
Bit like alternative medicine, the proponents are none too keen to have their witchcraft investigated by rational methods (for obvious reasons).
Some like Dairy Milk, others prefer Black Magic.
Go figure !
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Its quite odd people are willing to handover £350 quid on recommendation alone but wont spend 400/450 to have independant verification. I don't actually think its about the engineering its about having a trinket/farkle or what ever.
On the track when your chasing 10ths /100ths of a second fair enough. But take that 150k mile hexhead i dont recall burnt valves and holed pistons being amongst the failed parts from lean running.
On the track when your chasing 10ths /100ths of a second fair enough. But take that 150k mile hexhead i dont recall burnt valves and holed pistons being amongst the failed parts from lean running.
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