Random idle balance, Erratic idle & rough running,

AustinW

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OK two things, probably the same cause though.

2011 GSA 83,000 miles. Valves in tolerance (just) last time I checked.

1. Random throttle balance

See this video filmed today after fiddling about with throttle cables and connectors to TPSs, Idle Valves, & Injectors in an attempt to find a cause for fault 2. At around 10 seconds, 33 seconds and 55 seconds the balance goes off the scale with no input from me other than holding the throttle above tickover (the gradual rising and falling of engine speed and associated gradual changes in balance are me - the sudden and extreme changes in balance are random and unexplained). I am using GS911 so the idle stepper motors are parked. Any thoughts? I did eventually get the balance to be around zero at 3,000ish rpm.


2. Before I did this I have been suffering for some months of an intermittent and random poor tickover and roughness. Both come and go randomly together but never seem to last too long. I have had the GS911 on when it was doing the poor tickover thing and nothing seemed to have changed in real time values from when it was running OK. The poor tickover is either an erratic tickover pulsing of around 1200 - 1500 rpm, or a complete unwillingness to tickover. It feels and sounds like the engine is waaaay out of balance when it does this - hence my though that 1 & 2 are linked. In both cases of erratic tickover and roughness if I just weight the throttle the tiniest bit it runs ok(ish) and somewhat smoother - but revs are up to about 1500rpm. When its doing this if I ride it then it feels out of balance, and quite rough - lumpy rather than buzzy. Switching ignition off/on has cleared it but most times not.

The symptoms have NOT appeared on a proper cold engine, and most commonly occur after a long closed throttle slow down or when hot like in traffic.

Over the past couple of months I have had the following faults: Left Hand Lambda Sensor value out of range. New sensor fitted - no change. I also got hold of a used set of 4 stick coils. No change, I am back on the originals now. I had a knock sensor fault the other day - value too high, but that could be caused by anything. I have reset adaptations and done idle valve calibration umpteen times. Nothing simple like this seems to cure it.

Real time values on the GS911 all seem to be OK, specifically the lambda values are (now) both in range and jump about as they are supposed to. Other values that are also paired all seem to rise and fall together except for the Knock sensors which have a significant difference. Not sure if that is normal not or what a typical value should be.
Edit.....the additive Trim adaptation values also seem to differ quite a bit for each cylinder, but not sure what the scale is. -3.19% one side -3.98% the other. (an adaptation reset puts these back to zero and the ECU then learns what adaptation to apply).

Any ideas anyone.

Oh, and the flat spot between about 5,000 and 6,000 rpm seems to gone bigger than ever.
 
check hex code...

I think there's a notice on the GS-911 website that suggests there's a known issue with the latest software release that causes poor tickover/running after a balance.

Worth checking out perhaps....

Roger
 
I think there's a notice on the GS-911 website that suggests there's a known issue with the latest software release that causes poor tickover/running after a balance.

Worth checking out perhaps....

Roger

Thanks Roger, that's a different issue - you have to do an adaptations reset after doing a throttle balance. (Not surprising really as you have changed things and where the old adaptations worked for the old settings, they won't work properly for the new). My issue #1 was DURING the balance process, and issue #2 happens randomly regardless.
 
Same symptoms of a failing TPS ...... Often fail but no fault codes show.
 
Same symptoms of a failing TPS ...... Often fail but no fault codes show.

Would agree ref. the TPS as you say it one component that affects both cylinders and a bad or dirty track is not logged on the GS911..
The idle actuators are linked so let them sort the idle and balance the cables at 3 to 4K RPM.
It is a shame that the idle actuators were not linked to individual MAP sensors.
 
Ref post#3 on my 2012 GS I had the rough running after doing the idle actuator calibration but after having the software updated that particular issue does not reappear.
The update was in June 2016 and it shows on the autoscan as K024-16-06-510.
I did report all this to Hexcode as I had a support ticket raised with them at the time but their known issues site still shows the same problem!!
Don't know if this be of help to fellow tossers?

The known issue from Hexcode:
On R1200 Twincam models, after doing a Idle Actuator Calibration, once the engine is started, the idle is very rough. The solution is to do a "Reset All Adaptations Values" (and remember to follow the re-learn procedure afterwards). Once you have experienced this, please do an AutoScan and send us the AutoScan. Then take your motorcycle to BMW and ask them to update the Engine Control Unit's software... Once updated, do another AutoScan and send it to us please.
 
Thanks again all.

Ok, I have ordered a Hella TPS as per "Ted's" thread where he identified a non-BMW part. £38.50 posted via eBay. Its gotta be worth a go.

I also a did a couple of scans on the GS911 this morning to try and pick out any problems. I don't seem to be able to upload CSV or numbers files and any XLS files I make are too big. Anyway what I saw was three occasions in the 20 second run when the throttle angle parameter suddenly jumped from 1.18 where I was holding it steady to 0.78. I cant see any other parameter changing at the same time to account for it. I think this is about the nearest thing to seeing a failing TPS.

The CSV files are on my thread on the Hexcode GS911 forum. http://forum.hexcode.co.za/forum/index.php/topic,2155.0.html
 
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As a quick try / fix , do a search for cleaning the TPS -

it will take about half hour, if it works, you will know where your fault lies .. the new part is the long term solution
 
Would agree ref. the TPS as you say it one component that affects both cylinders and a bad or dirty track is not logged on the GS911..
The idle actuators are linked so let them sort the idle and balance the cables at 3 to 4K RPM.
It is a shame that the idle actuators were not linked to individual MAP sensors.

An interesting point about the idle actuators and 3 to 4000 rpm.
When setting the main throttle balance I disconnect the stepper motors and then start the engine.
I don’t have a GS911 so this rules out any throttle balance interference from the steppers.
The engine is really awkward to start needing enough throttle to fire it up. But below 1500 rpm the engine just shuts down. Above 1500 it feels perfectly normal.
 
Fitted the TPS today, reset adaptations and rebalanced the throttle bodies. Quick test ride and all seems good. Lot lots smoother especially on pick up from closed and when shutting the throttle. What I hadn’t noticed had changed before was how engine braking hadn’t been as good - now it’s like I have put the brakes on.

BUT I couldn’t get a reliable balance. It was well within tolerance but while I strived for perfect balance at 3-3,500 rpm when I shut the throttle and went back to 3k rpm the balance was different, say moved to +9 on the rhs. I gave up in the end as the engine was getting v hot. Also at tickover it’s not perfect either but I guess the adaptations will sort that. Finally the thing in the video in OP where balance suddenly zooms to the right happened a couple of times while balancing it. I am thinking either air leak which could even be on the balancer or another sensor going wacky. Not sure which. But knock sensor or idle valve would seem to be a likely culprits as there are two of em.

I just need to put a few hundred miles on it and if I don’t get the old symptoms back I will consider it fixed. If not it might be time some more expert help.

The TPS supplied looks to be identical and was a straight fit, but slightly worryingly the etched part number was different (or it might just have been a batch number) and a couple of other numbers and logos had been deliberately erased with something hot.

On bendys point, at its worst my bike was exactly how bendy describes his with the idle valves disabled - big handful to start it, won’t run below 1500 and it’s a bit rough then.

Finally I did note from real time values that the new TPS allows for more finesse. The lowest throttle angle I saw on the old one was 1.18 then 1.57. The new one opens first to 0.38, then 0.79, then 1.18, 1.57 etc going up in increments of around 0.37 ish. And there was me thinking it would be linear. It’s not surprising FI can be jerky at low throttle openings. The second position is twice as much throttle as the first. The effect of opening the throttle a little bit therefore has far less effect the more the throttle was open in the first place. If you get what I mean.

Hopefully Just the noisy alternator to sort now.
 
150 mile ride yesterday around the Cumbria/Yorks area and all is good. Very very good, I consider it fixed. :aidan MPG on the computer back up to 54mpg, super smooth, pulls like a train from low revs, flat spot all but gone, starts without touching the throttle. I am a happy boy :D A couple of trips this week should add another 500 this week all the adaptations should have developed nicely by then too so I am expecting it to get better and better.

With hindsight I can see that this issue has been bubbling under for some time, probably a year or more as I don't really remember the bike being as smooth and as tractable as it is now. At £38.50 for a TPS and 5 mins to fit and 10mins to balance I reckon if anyone has bike that has an erratic tickover and is a bit lumpy it should be the first thing to be changed.
 
Mine has no flat spot issues and pulls well but at 74,000 miles its probably worth swapping the TPS anyway.

BTW, the "interesting" starting and tickover behaviour with disconnected idle steppers is normal. They handle the air control under 1500 so the engine will always stall if they are not working.
 
Thanks for all the info Austin, I have been wondering about my tps for a while now, my bike is 10 years old now and nowhere near as smooth as I remember it when new. I will get a new tps and see if it improves.
 
Here’s the Hella part versus original. Fitting takes five minutes.

c5750c78cdefe06786152cb37d00222a.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
After my recent fracas with a fuel pump controller that had gone intermittent, that could be another place to look. Connect a bypass wire to the pump and see if anything changes.
 
After my recent fracas with a fuel pump controller that had gone intermittent, that could be another place to look. Connect a bypass wire to the pump and see if anything changes.

It's been fixed - TPS.
 
I fitted the TPS (to my 2008 single-cam bike) in post #15 but havent had time to ride it and test, not sure if the OP is fully sorted yet with his bike but he seems happy in post #12.

The pic was just to help others easily identify the part and its Hella number should they need one.
 


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