08 GSA Fuel pump controller or fuel pump issue?

andeebee

andeebee

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Had my first break down at side of road today with this bike.
With 95 miles of range remaining (fuel strip still works) and fuel sloshing in the tank, the bike stuttered and died and would not restart, firing a couple of times then dying on each try.
I immediately thought of a fuel problem as its the only thing I havent changed.
On a hunch it might not be getting the fuel over from the other side, I pushed it to a nearby petrol station and put another 10 litres in and she fired up straight away and got me home.

So I have been reading about the fuel pump controller packing up but those failures seem terminal - or do they occur intermittently?
Or is this the issue where the reserve side of the GSA tank is not being pumped over, due to a pump failure, causing fuel starvation?
Or are they both related?
The fuel pump controller was very corroded when I first got the bike, so I cleaned it up best I could and coated with ACF50 and left alone.
08 GSA with 42K miles.

Cheers, Andy
 
Not really much help but might be helpful... Same year GSA as yours, similar issue. When I'm down to 70 (or lower) miles for fuel, I've noted the tank has actually only got 1 litre left as the last few times it took just over 32liters to fill up when reading 70/65 deffo not enough for what's estimated left. (However, I understand it's based on the way your using the throttle).

If you for whatever reason don't do the bypass of the fuel pump controller a front brake and a few shoves forward usually for me to nearest fuel up.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
 
Alwaysawayround said:
Not really much help but might be helpful... Same year GSA as yours, similar issue. When I'm down to 70 (or lower) miles for fuel, I've noted the tank has actually only got 1 litre left as the last few times it took just over 32liters to fill up when reading 70/65 deffo not enough for what's estimated left. (However, I understand it's based on the way your using the throttle).

If you for whatever reason don't do the bypass of the fuel pump controller a front brake and a few shoves forward usually for me to nearest fuel up.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You may have more than you realise in the tank, I have regularly put in 35+ litres and once 37.21 litres in.
 
If the Fuel pump pressure drops below 3.5 Bar or 4 bar on the TC There will be no return to the tank from the fuel pressure regulator.
This return feed operates the transfer pump from right to left side of the tank on a GSA.
This fuel pressure drop will mean the bike returns very lean under full throttle.
Quickest way to check is remove the return pipe on the left side of the tank push the Q/D valve in check the fuel flow at idle.
 
Thanks for replies.
I have been down to single figure fuel Range calculated miles previously, so Im guessing something is now faulty. Im confident there was plenty of fuel in the tank, the tank has never over read before, usually under read the range left in the tank.
My GSA is the model prior to the TC, does this use a transfer pump? Or is it the fuel controller thats not telling the transfer pump to work?
Replacement fuel controllers arent cheap at between £60 to £130 depending on whether its used, stolen or new.

Im probably on borrowed time with mine if mine is the original part and looking at the numbers of failures for the '08 bikes, everything is pointing to the fuel controller.
Cant trust it now I have had this problem and will look into making a controller bypass wire to carry around, but need a long term solution.
 
I would replace the FPC if I had even the slightest doubt about it, they are a well known issue.

Its probably a weak fuel pump that isn't man enough to draw a suction and feed the "sucking jet pump" that acts as a venturi to return fuel from the right wing of the tank to the left (where the fuel pump sits).


Read this, post No 28 Sums it up :

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showth...ank-capacity/page2?highlight=sucking+jet+pump

Do a forum search for "sucking jet pump" and knock yourself out.
 
When you got to the fuel pump was there any resistance when opening the filler cap accompanied by an audible “whoosh”?
 
No tank breather problems, I had recently had the tank breather hoses off and cleaned so Im confident they are OK.
Have ordered a new FC and new pump.
 
Probably the way to go, you can always carry the old fuel pump controller as an emergency spare.
And at 42 K miles the pump has probably seen its best days. My last pump after 45 K mile was down to 2 bar under full throttle and showing an air fuel ratio of 18 to 1 Surprised I have any exhaust valves left.
I now have a miniature fuel pressure gauge on the dash.
The cheap ebay pattern pump is holding up well.
I tried to reverse flush the paper element fuel filter built into the pump mounting but ended up compromising the filter, so now run a separate automotive VW EFI filter.
 
Run the bike with a pump bypass wire and see how it behaves. If the problem goes away, you can be sure your pump controller is the problem. However, if you have a faulty fuel strip that's showing empty tank, the pump will be running at full power. If you disconnect the fuel strip, the pump will run at the default low power setting. When it does that, a worn pump wont fully empty the tank. You can work out which it is by plugging/unplugging the fuel strip and using a controller bypass wire.

@Mistacat's fuel pressure gauge is a great way to see what's going on and for the cost of an aftermarket pump you can see what going on with the fuel line pressure. A worn pump wont hold the correct line pressure. A good pump (regulated or not) will always show the regulated line pressure as any excess fuel flow is fed back to the tank.
 
gazza12adv said:
You may have more than you realise in the tank, I have regularly put in 35+ litres and once 37.21 litres in.
Click to expand...

I completely agree that the GSA tank on my 06 holds more than the 33lt that it is advertised as having. Reading some of the old sales material, it did mention somewhere that the tank capacity of "33lt" is not brimmed and that it also has approx 3-4 litres of "air" in it after said 33lt of fuel!!!!! ........I sh1t you not! I also get into some interesting conversations regarding how much mileage I get out of a tank of fuel but that's another thread.
 
Replaced FPC and now done the pump using this pattern part.
As others have noted, the plastic pump 'holder' needs hacking to get the replacement to fit (new part is 1mm larger in dia). I cut a slot and secured with cable ties. Wiring connector and fuel pipe attaches as stock, fitted back in tank and started straight up.
Took for a run today and noticed no difference other than a curiously low tickover of around 1050 to 1100 when stationary. Dont mind a low tickover but it was causing some stumbling when filtering slowly through heavy traffic.
Came home and reset TPS (replaced with new part a month or so ago) will retry tomorrow.
 
Did you clear the adaptations when you fitted the new pump ?.
It will be trying to run slightly richer for a while ( Having adapted to the lower pressure by increasing injector pulse width).
If not the long term fuel trims will take a while to adapt to the new pump pressure.
The short term trims will sort it out and the long term trims will learn from the short term.
 
andeebee said:
Replaced FPC and now done the pump using this pattern part.
As others have noted, the plastic pump 'holder' needs hacking to get the replacement to fit (new part is 1mm larger in dia). I cut a slot and secured with cable ties. Wiring connector and fuel pipe attaches as stock, fitted back in tank and started straight up.
Took for a run today and noticed no difference other than a curiously low tickover of around 1050 to 1100 when stationary. Dont mind a low tickover but it was causing some stumbling when filtering slowly through heavy traffic.
Came home and reset TPS (replaced with new part a month or so ago) will retry tomorrow.
Click to expand...

You might find the cable ties don't cope with petrol immersion so do check for any rattles in the fuel tank. A couple of jubilee clips will be a better to hold the pump housing together.

Presumably your pump went into the tank without disturbing the seal. Mine kept dislodging the seal. Grease on the seal inside face and pump body allowed it to slip into place ok. DO NOT use grease on the tank rim side of the seal as the *** thing will just keep slipping off into the tank.
 
Mistacat - I didnt realise the (possibly) lower pump pressure would be accounted for by the ECU. I wonder if this could be the reason for my exceptionally white valves observed earlier - if my pump has been running at a lower pressure than required may have resulted in a lean mixture on an already lean engine?
Im also running a Wunderlich fuel adjustment thing with Remus decat exhaust and can so between the three of them its probably well confused. Should I disconnect the Wunderlich for a while during this relearning phase?
I have a good run planned up to the bike show next week that should sort it.
Will get some jubilee's in for the cable tie replacement.
Tank seal came out with the assembly but I (think) it went back in ok (without any lube).
 
If you still have the lambda sensors in circuit they will override any alterations your wunderlich fuel adjuster tries to make during CLOSED LOOP.
The system is in closed loop for a large percentage of the ride time and in closed loop the lambda sensors will hold the air fuel ratio at 14.7 to 1 regardless of the Remus system, fuel pressure, wunderlich fuel controller altering injector pulse width. etc.
The lambda sensor controlled BMSK ecu is an excellent way to control the fueling in closed loop to keep the air fuel ratio at 14.7 to 1 or if you wish to set this to a different ratio, say 13.8 to 1, then you have to fit a lambda offset devices, such as AF-XIED`s or innovate motorsport LC2`s . ( the later being a bit too bulky for bike fitment).
OPEN LOOP has no control circuit ( although it does learn slowly from the closed loop settings).
My 2012 TC at 42K miles Started to lose performance under full throttle, could have been coils breaking down under load etc, but the first check for me was the fueling as I have an Innovate Motorsports LM2 dual channel data logger and extra lambda sensor ports in the exhausts to take the wide band sensors.
On full throttle ( open loop) it showed an air fuel ratio of 18 to 1 !!!!!
Closed loop was 13.8 to 1 which I have the AF-XEID`s set at.
Put a fuel pressure gauge on and it was down to 30 psi instead of 58 psi which it should be for a TC.
The fuel pressure was below the regulator setting in closed loop but the lambda sensors were compensating for this.
A couple of notes, the regulator is purely mechanical ( no sensor feedback to the ECU)
In closed loop it is quite surprising the limits of fuel pressure, air filter state, injector wear and gum, exhaust system etc etc that the Lambda sensor control system can cope with. Its brilliant in design just needs a little manipulating :)
 
Just had a huge fuel leak from the tank access cover at local Tesco.
Word of warning with anyone who has changed the fuel pump recently to double check the cover is sealing.
I was filling bike up with some 99, to get to bike show tomorrow and given recent problems was putting in more than usual.
Got to about £23 and this fella comes over telling me I have a leak and the fuel is pissing out. Sure enough Im on the other side of the bike and hadnt noticed, but there was a torrent of fresh fuel coming from the side of the tank where the pump had been fettled previously.
I had to wait until it had emptied itself down below the cover, all over the hot exhaust etc and then ride it gingerly home all the time expecting to look like ghost rider at any point! :firemth
I check cover at home and it was still on tight so I am guessing the seal pushed inside the tank while doing it up or something. Need to investigate further.

So if you have done this job and dont fill up with much fuel, other than long trips, please be careful when you first get a tank full.
 
The seals push very easily into the tank. DAMHIK.

The seal outside edge must be dry but use grease on the inside face and on the fuel pump. Seat the seal then carefully slide the pump not place. Check all the way around with a mirror at 1/2 way down. I also grease the clamping ring on the internal face.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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