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It seems there is less young people interested in doing their car tests let alone going for bikes - definitely seems biking is for the middle aged plus category.

Oh and the 1250 is bloody awesome, the engine is loads of fun and so much better than the previous one - as for the brakes......meh!!!???

The problem with youngsters and cars is purely down to the extortionate cost of insurance.
 
I want proper mono-blocs on the front, none of those cheap bolt together Tesco value callipers designed for push bikes

For goodness sake -- It's a road going adventure bike not a MotoGP bike. Monobloc calipers are not necessarily better than non monobloc on a production bike if designed properly. Brake feel and fade has more to do with discs\pads than caliper.

See link below to article comparing the two , although it is talking about racing car brakes the same principles apply. Basically its saying the steel bolts in a two part caliper give more strength and less flex than a cheap production based monobloc.

" The monobloc caliper architecture designed to be made from a very strong and very stiff material will not deliver the same level of performance when made from more common production materials. Monoblocs have significantly less strength and stiffness than a well designed two piece caliper with bolts "

Full article here:-
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/monobloc-vs-2pc-calipers

The 1250 Hayes brakes feel and work just fine.
FIt Brembos if you want the name to be seen rather than "BMW".
 
That article is written by a two piece caliper supplier as a defense white paper against Monoblocks.

Not worth the paper its written on...
 
For goodness sake -- It's a road going adventure bike not a MotoGP bike. Monobloc calipers are not necessarily better than non monobloc on a production bike if designed properly. Brake feel and fade has more to do with discs\pads than caliper.

No, that's not right.

Brake fade is caused by the inability to control heat buildup, and heat gets EVERYWHERE on a braking system, effecting all brake components....

Cheap brakes can cause all sorts of problems.

a) Two piece caliper flex can reduce braking force

b) Piston size, quantity and position can cause uneven pad pressure, causing uneven pad wear and brake force

c) Poor piston machining and seal design unable to prevent stiction in bad weather and salt buildup, this can cause brakes to sieze against the rotor and warp discs

d) Poor caliper design can retain heat, rather than disperse it

e) Cheap Brake Rotor material can warp easily under sudden extreme heat transfer or poor running in process

f) Cheap Pad material can glaze and provide poor resistance reducing braking power

g) Cheap Brake fluid can boil and not handle heat buildup causing gas separation from water molecules (causing fade)

h) Rubber brake hoses can expand under heat generated increasing volumetric space for fluid, reducing braking force

This isn't MotoGP stuff either, heavy bikes with a heavy load on a steep slope with regular braking will cause the brakes to have to deal with a lot of heat.

Good luck on your mountain bike brakes :D Time will tell....
 
No, that's not right.

Brake fade is caused by the inability to control heat buildup, and heat gets EVERYWHERE on a braking system, effecting all brake components....

Cheap brakes can cause all sorts of problems.

a) Two piece caliper flex can reduce braking force
b) Piston size, quantity and position can cause uneven pad pressure, causing uneven pad wear and brake force
c) Poor piston machining and seal design to prevent stiction in bad weather and salt buildup, this can cause brakes to sieze against the rotor and warp discs
d) Poor caliper design can retain heat, rather than disperse it
e) Cheap Brake Rotor material can warp easily under sudden extreme heat transfer or poor running in process
f) Cheap Pad material can glaze and provide poor resistance reducing braking power
g) Cheap Brake fluid can boil and not handle heat buildup causing gas separation from water molecules (causing fade)
h) Rubber brake hoses can expand under heat generated increasing volumetric space for fluid, reducing braking force

This isn't MotoGP stuff either, heavy bikes with a heavy load on a steep slope with regular braking will cause the brakes to have to deal with a lot of heat.

Good luck on your mountain bike brakes :D

All this about brakes is just conjecture with regards to the Hayes callipers on the new bikes. All this crap about them being no good is on the basis on one non scientific test in one magazine. Do you really believe BMW would fit inferior brakes just to save a few £££, I have more faith than that. Hayes brakes have been fine on Harleys for years and there is no class action going on in the US with regards to bad brakes. I know Harleys are not BMWs, but their bikes are heavy and they are now able to go well and guess what they stop!! I have had two Harleys in the last 11 years and never had a problem with brakes. If you wanted really decent brakes there are plenty of small brake manufacturers that make a superior product to Brembo off the shelf stuff. If someone can actually prove the Hayes brakes are worse ie a proper test, then I might believe.
 
Here's an example...

Years ago I bought a 6 pot AP Racing Braking system... it was the top dog BTCC Spec for my car that I used on the Nurburgring.

My mate bought a much cheaper branded 6 pot racing brake system (Hi-Spec) and on paper they looked identical.

My brakes NEVER faded, or warped or caused any issues..

His squealed like a pig under braking and the rotors warped regularly giving brake shudder and were a nightmare.

You pay for what you get.... period.
 
All this about brakes is just conjecture with regards to the Hayes callipers on the new bikes. All this crap about them being no good is on the basis on one non scientific test in one magazine. Do you really believe BMW would fit inferior brakes just to save a few £££, I have more faith than that. Hayes brakes have been fine on Harleys for years and there is no class action going on in the US with regards to bad brakes. I know Harleys are not BMWs, but their bikes are heavy and they are now able to go well and guess what they stop!! I have had two Harleys in the last 11 years and never had a problem with brakes. If you wanted really decent brakes there are plenty of small brake manufacturers that make a superior product to Brembo off the shelf stuff. If someone can actually prove the Hayes brakes are worse ie a proper test, then I might believe.

"Do you really believe BMW would fit inferior brakes just to save a few £££"

WTF... have you just landed from Mars?

BMW will be banking on the idea that MOST BMW R1250 owners will not be using their front brakes heavily. Because the application of front brakes now and then will be fine with Hayes....

But, there are a lot of conditions these bikes get exposed to... that require GOOD QUALITY BRAKES
 
"Do you really believe BMW would fit inferior brakes just to save a few £££"

WTF... have you just landed from Mars?

Don't think so, but you obviously believe that BMW would fit inferior brakes. Think you are just talking rubbish, what proof do you have that the brakes are inferior, if you were part of the engineering team that picked them and can provide details of how badly they perform compared to Brembo, please post. Otherwise its just conjecture until its proven by a proper test. How much saving would there actually be on fitting Hayes vs Brembo, not much compared to the overall price of the product.
 
Which manufacturer had a brake recall ???

Hint, it starts with Brembo.

I had monoblocks on the RC8, always seizing up, according to owners manual, I washed them, then rinsed with deionised water then dried them.

And the caliper manufacturer was ???


As for inferior pads/disc etc. I don't know who the pad manufacturer is, could be Hayes, ebc, ferodo; lots of people, same for the discs. I would expect Hayes but have no knowledge either way.

The fluid will probably be DOT4 which is a standard specification, so won't be inferior or substandard.

Why not enquire, of the mothership, if they will give you the evidence for brembo/Hayes comparison in braking efficiency, and you can post it here for comment.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
We shall see, the Beta Testers have only just started :D

Carry On :D
 
No, that's not right.

Brake fade is caused by the inability to control heat buildup, and heat gets EVERYWHERE on a braking system, effecting all brake components....

Cheap brakes can cause all sorts of problems.

a) Two piece caliper flex can reduce braking force

b) Piston size, quantity and position can cause uneven pad pressure, causing uneven pad wear and brake force

c) Poor piston machining and seal design unable to prevent stiction in bad weather and salt buildup, this can cause brakes to sieze against the rotor and warp discs

d) Poor caliper design can retain heat, rather than disperse it

e) Cheap Brake Rotor material can warp easily under sudden extreme heat transfer or poor running in process

f) Cheap Pad material can glaze and provide poor resistance reducing braking power

g) Cheap Brake fluid can boil and not handle heat buildup causing gas separation from water molecules (causing fade)

h) Rubber brake hoses can expand under heat generated increasing volumetric space for fluid, reducing braking force

This isn't MotoGP stuff either, heavy bikes with a heavy load on a steep slope with regular braking will cause the brakes to have to deal with a lot of heat.

Good luck on your mountain bike brakes :D Time will tell....


Thanks , I enjoy my Hayes braked 1250 more than my old 1200.

There's only point "a)- two part calipers" in your list that has any bearing on why the BMW(Hayes) calipers might be any worse than Brembos. All the other points could be the same on both. And its the automatic assumption that monoblocs are better than two part calipers that is disputable and I'm trying to highlight that fact.

Since its a sunny day I think I'll leave the school playground now and go out on my poorly braked 1250 :D:D;)
 
The problem with youngsters and cars is purely down to the extortionate cost of insurance.

You're not wrong there... after saving up his hard earned money and passing his test (theory & practical) first time, my son found a nice clean running 8 year old Ford Fiesta 1.1, no frills, base model etc for sale.

Bank of Dad helped with the additional purchase price and he bought the car...... came to get insurance and even with me as a named driver, £2578 :eek: :mad:. It's ridiculous. :blast. Step forward Bank of Dad again with a 0% loan for the lad.
 
I see a few on here struggle with the physics side of things.

The new GS is heavier so will require longer distance to stop from the same speed at the same brake pressure. That brake pressure may influence the flex in the 2 part calipers where the monoblocks would be more rigid. That flex again may influence the stopping distance if all things equal. The reason is that part of the hydraulic pressure or energy goes to pushing the 2 caliper parts away from each other, reducing the pressure and friction applied to the pads/brake disc. You will not notice the difference in day to day use but a test of max brake press applied to the calipers can show the flex if suitable measuring equipment is used.

So come the day that you need all the anchors thrown out, what would you rather have?
 
I see a few on here struggle with the physics side of things.

The new GS is heavier so will require longer distance to stop from the same speed at the same brake pressure. That brake pressure may influence the flex in the 2 part calipers where the monoblocks would be more rigid. That flex again may influence the stopping distance if all things equal. The reason is that part of the hydraulic pressure or energy goes to pushing the 2 caliper parts away from each other, reducing the pressure and friction applied to the pads/brake disc. You will not notice the difference in day to day use but a test of max brake press applied to the calipers can show the flex if suitable measuring equipment is used.

So come the day that you need all the anchors thrown out, what would you rather have?

I don't think people on here struggle with physics, the benefits of a mono block are known. But and it's a big but, in the case of a motorcycle of any weight (Hayes brakes are fine on Harleys) would there ever be a situation where the pressure applied would hinder the performance of a two part calliper over a mono block? Again I assume that the engineers who make Hayes brakes understand their performance and limitations and if there was any question about them not performing the same as the Brembo callipers, would BMW fit them or in fact would any manufacturer fit them if they are crap, that is the question.
 
I don't think people on here struggle with physics, the benefits of a mono block are known. But and it's a big but, in the case of a motorcycle of any weight (Hayes brakes are fine on Harleys) would there ever be a situation where the pressure applied would hinder the performance of a two part calliper over a mono block? Again I assume that the engineers who make Hayes brakes understand their performance and limitations and if there was any question about them not performing the same as the Brembo callipers, would BMW fit them or in fact would any manufacturer fit them if they are crap, that is the question.
I doubt that any manufacturer would knowingly fit crap brakes.

As for the flexing bit, you are far more likely to run out of tyre adhesion or have the abs cycling than notice any concernable difference that it isn't a monobloc.

If, it is all you know; how can you tell the difference.

Standard brakes on a 911 are good and you'll be really happy with them, try the pccb (ceramic discs/pads) instead and you'll think the standard brakes are crap.

Everything is subjective, except my opinion obviously.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
I see a few on here struggle with the physics side of things.

The new GS is heavier so will require longer distance to stop from the same speed at the same brake pressure. That brake pressure may influence the flex in the 2 part calipers where the monoblocks would be more rigid. That flex again may influence the stopping distance if all things equal. The reason is that part of the hydraulic pressure or energy goes to pushing the 2 caliper parts away from each other, reducing the pressure and friction applied to the pads/brake disc. You will not notice the difference in day to day use but a test of max brake press applied to the calipers can show the flex if suitable measuring equipment is used.

So come the day that you need all the anchors thrown out, what would you rather have?

Rubbish before any movement you have to unload the bolt stress. Think about it like the cylinder head studs holding the head on, the piston moving up and compressing the air does not move the stud or add to its stress/load.
 
Rubbish before any movement you have to unload the bolt stress. Think about it like the cylinder head studs holding the head on, the piston moving up and compressing the air does not move the stud or add to its stress/load.

I understand. The brake caliper is a cantilever design. It is the cantilever that flexes.
 
I understand. The brake caliper is a cantilever design. It is the cantilever that flexes.

And the cantilever effect is the same for both designs and the bolt stress holding 2 half's together will be greater than any cantilever force or the design is flawed.

Having driven both bikes I prefer the 1250, the bite/feel is better and having done a few stops they seem ever bit as good as the bremos on my 1200. Certainly more than I will be needing so I'm not concerned.
 
To think the BMW wouldn’t fit slightly inferior parts to save a quid is blinkered. They do it all the time. They set a specification the manufacturer has to meet. The manufacturer can just about meet it or they can meet it and then some, depending on the manufacturer and the parts they are tooled up to make.
Sometimes the part may be far better than required as it’s cheaper to provide the part you already make than retool for a lesser specification.
(*** huge generalisation here****) Harley’s don’t stop just fine. They stop. They just don’t really do performance braking. Same way their bikes aren’t really about cornering either or they would all have a bit more ground clearance when going round bends.

Basing it on nothing other than my own crap opinion I think the Brembos are slightly better. The Hayes brakes will improve but I think this first try is just their beta/generation 1. They probably just took what they have now and rebadged it bmw and it is just good enough.

That’s probably why it’s still Brembo at the rear as Hayes had nothing on the shelf that met requirements. Give them a little while and they will be spitting out monoblocks same as the Brembos.

It’s not like Brembo we’re supplying their top tier products anyway. Look at the Olins stuff that some bikes fit as OEM, it isn’t a patch on the stuff you buy aftermarket from Olins.
 


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