Who needs a BMW navigator.....
- Thread starter malcopopolo
- Start date
jefformston
Registered user
NOT CORRECT
‘Phone -
Will do Nav , but invariably needs mobile data & location services to lock / function (cell/ mast info & GPS)’
No need for mobile data, if an app such as CoPilot or similar is used.
fred_jb
Registered user
I agree. Phones do not need access to mobile network and mobile data to do navigation. I've used my phone running MyRoute Navigation app perfectly well in remote areas with no mobile signal. You just download the required country maps in advance to the phone, together with any pre-planned routes. While phones will use mobile networks to assist with getting a location fix quicker, it is not essential and in my experience phones will work quite happily with just the GPS satellites.
It's unfortunate there is still a lot of BS being touted as evidence that a dedicated GPS is better. There are some real advantages to using one instead of a phone, but outweighed IN MY OPINION by the disadvantages. However, claiming that phones need cellular data in order to get a fix and are susceptible to vibration etc is simply wrong. Please, argue either case with facts, or opinions based on those facts, not nonsense like this.
To be more specific in response to what was stated earlier, Apple products are not flaky and their iPhone is not particularly fragile. The only problem I have had in over 10 years SatNav'ing around Europe has been with a dedicated SatNav device or an accessory being used with the iPhone. An iPhone has NEVER failed on me. Do I think there's any need for a backup device? Not on my usual trips no as I will be travelling with others and there will ALWAYS be another mobile device that could be used in an emergency. If I was travelling alone on a world tour? That's a different matter entirely and requires a different mind set and plan, with emergency backup contingency plans and is not really relevant to a simple dedicated GPS device vs. mobile phone debate.
I think we can all agree that trying to use a phone for SatNav with just an on-line mapping app (Google or Apple maps etc) is an inferior solution. The comparison is really between a dedicated device such as BMW offer for their bikes (or other similar device) vs. a mobile phone used with a dedicated SatNav app with off-line, i.e. fully downloaded map data. So in each case the maps are already there on the device and the GPS should be working in an equivalent manner (if not, I suggest there's a problem with the device). The comparison is therefore between the actual usage of each device. How it connects to and interfaces with the vehicle. How YOU interface with the device and what is required to operate it.
I am still firmly in the mobile phone camp on this. It's not a perfect solution, but for me, it's better than having to integrate an additional device into my biking life. I would never use a BMW Nav. device from a GS in my car and I would NEVER go out on a walk with it and if I find myself out and about in need of directional guidance, there's NO chance it would EVER just happen to be in my pocket. However, my mobile phone has got all those covered and since I am therefore very familiar with using it, adapting it for use on the bike is a no-brainer. But that is JMO. Others obviously prefer the fact that the BMW Nav is (possibly) better integrated into the bike and maybe easier to use with gloves and these are valid points, but for me they are outweighed by the advantages I have experienced using a mobile phone. Even simple things like making it easier to unpack and walk into the Hotel at the end of each day and vice versa in the morning. iPhone off the bike and in my pocket, helmet in one hand and bag in the other. Anything else is a faff and since I'm normally the one who planned the trip, gives me time to organise our arrival with the hotel while everyone else struggles getting all their stuff (and SatNavs) off their bikes etc.
One of the biggest remaining problems for my use of SatNav on longer trips is planning the route and transferring that to the device. I have been using the CoPilot app for many years now and although excellent in many ways, its developers are deaf when it comes to requests from users for the ability to copy routes from computer (PC, Mac) to the phone. However from the mention here of the WunderLINQ adapter I have become aware of the Scenic app which does provide such functionality and on my next trip I look forward to trying that - on the iPhone of course.
Very well put.
TomTom App which costs £15 per year including speed camera and traffic updates allows you to load gpx or itn routes via a pc or mac
fred_jb
Registered user
It's unfortunate there is still a lot of BS being touted as evidence that a dedicated GPS is better. There are some real advantages to using one instead of a phone, but outweighed IN MY OPINION by the disadvantages. However, claiming that phones need cellular data in order to get a fix and are susceptible to vibration etc is simply wrong. Please, argue either case with facts, or opinions based on those facts, not nonsense like this.
To be more specific in response to what was stated earlier, Apple products are not flaky and their iPhone is not particularly fragile. The only problem I have had in over 10 years SatNav'ing around Europe has been with a dedicated SatNav device or an accessory being used with the iPhone. An iPhone has NEVER failed on me. Do I think there's any need for a backup device? Not on my usual trips no as I will be travelling with others and there will ALWAYS be another mobile device that could be used in an emergency. If I was travelling alone on a world tour? That's a different matter entirely and requires a different mind set and plan, with emergency backup contingency plans and is not really relevant to a simple dedicated GPS device vs. mobile phone debate.
I think we can all agree that trying to use a phone for SatNav with just an on-line mapping app (Google or Apple maps etc) is an inferior solution. The comparison is really between a dedicated device such as BMW offer for their bikes (or other similar device) vs. a mobile phone used with a dedicated SatNav app with off-line, i.e. fully downloaded map data. So in each case the maps are already there on the device and the GPS should be working in an equivalent manner (if not, I suggest there's a problem with the device). The comparison is therefore between the actual usage of each device. How it connects to and interfaces with the vehicle. How YOU interface with the device and what is required to operate it.
I am still firmly in the mobile phone camp on this. It's not a perfect solution, but for me, it's better than having to integrate an additional device into my biking life. I would never use a BMW Nav. device from a GS in my car and I would NEVER go out on a walk with it and if I find myself out and about in need of directional guidance, there's NO chance it would EVER just happen to be in my pocket. However, my mobile phone has got all those covered and since I am therefore very familiar with using it, adapting it for use on the bike is a no-brainer. But that is JMO. Others obviously prefer the fact that the BMW Nav is (possibly) better integrated into the bike and maybe easier to use with gloves and these are valid points, but for me they are outweighed by the advantages I have experienced using a mobile phone. Even simple things like making it easier to unpack and walk into the Hotel at the end of each day and vice versa in the morning. iPhone off the bike and in my pocket, helmet in one hand and bag in the other. Anything else is a faff and since I'm normally the one who planned the trip, gives me time to organise our arrival with the hotel while everyone else struggles getting all their stuff (and SatNavs) off their bikes etc.
One of the biggest remaining problems for my use of SatNav on longer trips is planning the route and transferring that to the device. I have been using the CoPilot app for many years now and although excellent in many ways, its developers are deaf when it comes to requests from users for the ability to copy routes from computer (PC, Mac) to the phone. However from the mention here of the WunderLINQ adapter I have become aware of the Scenic app which does provide such functionality and on my next trip I look forward to trying that - on the iPhone of course.
A good summary. Like you I have found that on balance the phone is a better solution for me. Regarding route planning, I would urge anyone to try the MyRoute route planning app and its associated Navigation app. This was instrumental in my change to phone use as the route planning is just so easy compared to anything else I have tried. For detailed routes you can do the planning in a web based interface on your PC, but can also plan or amend routes on the fly on your phone while on a trip, and I usually take a mini laptop with me so that I can easily plan the next days riding when not on a fully pre-planned trip. Routes are stored in the MyRoute cloud, but like the maps can be downloaded to the phone in advance to be independent of the mobile data network. You can also just use the route planning function with another nav app or dedicated satnav so long as they can import routes, as it can output in standard route formats.
Some people have differing opinions,
Why should that be a problem ?
Each has it's pro's and cons, what works for one person dosent work for another.
I like a dedicated GPS, but i hate its sloppy phone & media integration,
I like a mobile with its phone, media, & GPS capabilitys, But i hate its short battery life, lack of case and mount,
and constant need to share every stop, shit & eat with all the world
All we need now is our GPS access revoked by Trumpton & the Brexity bunch and we'll all have paperweights lol
Why should that be a problem ?
Each has it's pro's and cons, what works for one person dosent work for another.
I like a dedicated GPS, but i hate its sloppy phone & media integration,
I like a mobile with its phone, media, & GPS capabilitys, But i hate its short battery life, lack of case and mount,
and constant need to share every stop, shit & eat with all the world
All we need now is our GPS access revoked by Trumpton & the Brexity bunch and we'll all have paperweights lol
fredaroony
Registered user
Not for satellite fix but it does use it to intermittently check the licenses. I've had some apps not start because the app store could not be contacted to check the purchases of the app. Real great when you're in the middle of nowhere with no signal.
Also had issues with the iPhone overheating, admittedly this was back in the iPhone 4 days.
fredaroony
Registered user
You must be on Android? The iPhone version doesn't have the My Routes feature.
Nice thing about the Tomtom GO app is the traffic feature works world wide while it's region locked on their dedicated devices.
Yes android.
Off to Cyprus in the morning and just downloaded Greece and Cyprus map
117mb and took less than 3 mins.
None of this long time crap and no storage room on SD card crap you get with Garmin
TomTom app has worldwide maps to download at no extra cost
Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk
Off to Cyprus in the morning and just downloaded Greece and Cyprus map
117mb and took less than 3 mins.
None of this long time crap and no storage room on SD card crap you get with Garmin
TomTom app has worldwide maps to download at no extra cost
Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk
I bought my Nav 5 with a 16 plate GS. Bloody expensive I thought at the time. I actually rarely took the Nav 5 out as I just didn’t get chance to travel as I’d hoped. However, last year on a trip down to Morocco the Nav 5 was awesome. No route was pre-planned, just one address to the next on the day which was made super easy by Garmin prompting the postcode by country. Nav V found its destination no problem at all and with it set to shortest route, not fastest time we explored some amazing routes cross country.
It all went tits up in Morocco as I didn’t have the map installed on the Nav 5, so used off-line google maps on the phone to get me where I needed to and then a bit of on-line search to the location.
All in all it was nice to have the phone back-up and if used with a decent route app I would imagine this could be the way I go in future, only because £500+ is a lot to pay for a new Nav. However, I would really need to test the app but at least I can make a comparison with the Nav V and make an informed choice.
It all went tits up in Morocco as I didn’t have the map installed on the Nav 5, so used off-line google maps on the phone to get me where I needed to and then a bit of on-line search to the location.
All in all it was nice to have the phone back-up and if used with a decent route app I would imagine this could be the way I go in future, only because £500+ is a lot to pay for a new Nav. However, I would really need to test the app but at least I can make a comparison with the Nav V and make an informed choice.
BiKenG
Registered user
I have to say I have not experienced this. Until recently I would turn off data roaming when abroad (for cost reasons) and so not possible for any mobile data usage whatsoever and never had any problem with an app that refused to run due to that. I guess it might occur if it's the first time you have ever run the app, but I cannot imagine any app trying to do that on a regular basis. Of course, some apps are just front end interfaces to web servers and so they cannot run without a data connection, but we are specifically discussing off-line SatNav apps whose entire purpose is to NOT require any data connection so they should never have that problem.
Having said that, I have had a situation with CoPilot that wanted to update its maps and was unusable until I had downloaded them. However, that has never happened in normal usage and I may have inadvertently already started the update process prior to leaving so possibly my fault. It was annoying though to be out on the road and not being able to use that favourite SatNav app. Fortunately, as its a mobile phone I was simply able to use an alternative that I had available (cannot remember what that was now though).
The one overheating problem I have experienced (when it was packed in a heavily insulated waterproof cover) was also with an iPhone 4. Subsequently with later iPhones and more 'open' mounts, it has not re-occurred.
I can clearly see that in many ways the phone is way ahead of the GPS when we debate what is the most advanced contraption.
Personally, the way I prefer to use the GPS, the NAV is for me. I like it because it is rugged, takes a beating, may be used with gloves on and may be controlled by the wonderwheel, and it gets me where I think I want to og, as long as I manage to program it with the proper destination. It also integrates with the bikes sytems, even if the TFT has made such a requirement obsolete.
I do not, however, get offended by anyone not sharing my point of view. We must all do as we find is best for ourselves.
In the long run, I think this debate will be ended by Technology. The rumors has it that BMW is working on an removable TFT, and it's a waste to operate with two screens, where the GPS screen is far inferior to the TFT. Combined display has been around in cars for a few years now, and it is bound to come on bikes as well. Just imagine a pad with an Instruments app and a CAN bus adapter, and you have it all.
Personally, the way I prefer to use the GPS, the NAV is for me. I like it because it is rugged, takes a beating, may be used with gloves on and may be controlled by the wonderwheel, and it gets me where I think I want to og, as long as I manage to program it with the proper destination. It also integrates with the bikes sytems, even if the TFT has made such a requirement obsolete.
I do not, however, get offended by anyone not sharing my point of view. We must all do as we find is best for ourselves.
In the long run, I think this debate will be ended by Technology. The rumors has it that BMW is working on an removable TFT, and it's a waste to operate with two screens, where the GPS screen is far inferior to the TFT. Combined display has been around in cars for a few years now, and it is bound to come on bikes as well. Just imagine a pad with an Instruments app and a CAN bus adapter, and you have it all.
Yep agree with you there and BMW will charge on a sliding scale what functionality you want in that screen.
fred_jb
Registered user
I agree that this is quite likely, though in the case of many cars the satnav and other non-critical display elements are on a secondary display. Once you start combining these on a single display, particularly when the external connectivity and processing power is provided by a smartphone app linked to the display, then there is always the possibility that critical stuff like speed display and system warnings might get corrupted or crashed by stuff like satnav displays, unless they can be completely electronically partitioned from each other.
It might be better and safer if BMW just produced a removable secondary display which would take the place of the current NAV, and take over the smartphone connectivity task from the instrument panel, possibly using industry standard Apple and Android car type connectivity which is being rapidly developed. This would give owners a choice of what satnav and other apps to use and display on this secondary screen, and would leave the now standard TFT dedicated to just being an instrument and bike systems menu display, not needing the current problematic and BMW specific smartphone Bluetooth connectivity. Why have the hassle and issues of developing and maintaining a BMW specific smartphone connector app when Android and Apple already provide one?
BiKenG
Registered user
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Trying to use one single display for everything is probably not going to work. There's just too much info needing to be displayed and SatNav in particular needs to NOT be small and hidden in a corner.
As you say, probably the best solution is a secondary display that works with Apple's CarPlay and the Android equivalent which would allow you to display on there anything you want from your phone, while still allowing full use of the bike's main (TFT) display. Surely that would suit pretty much everyone? Not hard for BMW to implement either. In fact, they could produce an accessory screen to do that right now. I'd definitely buy that.
fredaroony
Registered user
Tomtom was the app and it is designed as offline. It was quite a while ago but enough to put me off at the time. Might be worth another look though
In cars, the combined screen where you mix navigation and car relevant data in one screen works fine, without the need for a phone to be connected. So the technology is allready there. However, since the instrument panel is not too tall, and rather wide, a secondary screen is currently in use for detailed menues
On a bike, there is no need for locking to this format. Imagine replacing the current TFT and GPS with a tall TFT with an area covering the space for both units. This will provide plenty of space for a large map display with bike relevant information at the top or bottom, and when requred you may display a detailed menu for setup and so on. This could easy be done even with current tecnology, it's merly a question of making a sturdy display and write the proper software. I feel quite confident that since even stupid me can think of this, brains supperior to mine has toyed with this potential for quite a while.
On a bike, there is no need for locking to this format. Imagine replacing the current TFT and GPS with a tall TFT with an area covering the space for both units. This will provide plenty of space for a large map display with bike relevant information at the top or bottom, and when requred you may display a detailed menu for setup and so on. This could easy be done even with current tecnology, it's merly a question of making a sturdy display and write the proper software. I feel quite confident that since even stupid me can think of this, brains supperior to mine has toyed with this potential for quite a while.
fred_jb
Registered user
I think that would be technically and mechanically more complex, with possibly different operating systems for the different segments of the display to avoid unwanted interactions. It also means that the secondary display could not be sold separately as an upgrade. If you could buy the bike with just the current TFT instrument panel, then the only way to upgrade would be to remove that and replace with a combined unit rather than just add a secondary display.
Not making use of a phone and Apple Carplay or Google Auto to drive a secondary screen also has other drawbacks.
For a start it means BMW, who are not primarily a software house, if they are not going to piggyback off existing smartphone technology, are going to have to devise and maintain complex software to manage the required functionality for satnav, music playing, telephony, etc. Even if they do maintain the use of an app connected smartphone to drive these functions, we all know how poor they have been at making the current TFT work acceptably with many phones and headsets, so I wouldn't want to be an early adopter of such a system.
The other issue is that in this scenario the consumer only gets to use such functionality as BMW can either build into this mega display, or alternatively can get their in-house phone app to adequately support on that display - so don't expect to use your favourite satnav app on your phone, or your favourite music player app, etc, and have it passed through to the display by BMW's app.
In contrast, a separate secondary display dedicated to providing support for the automotive interfaces from Apple and Google would give consumers much more flexibility and choice in what they want to use, and these have massive resources behind their development and are likely to become the industry standards. I don't see BMW going it alone being able to compete with that, but I could be wrong - what do they use in their cars for this sort of thing?
Fred
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