Esmir, I agree with your final statement, let's not make this about personalities but about concepts. You're not the only one with no dog in the fight. Although I added an LC-1 to my bike and helped Nightrider perfect an AF-XIED for the BMWs I don't have any motorcycle products that I sell--not LC-1s, AF-XIEDs, not Chips, not sprockets. Now what I'm trying to do, on the back of three years of testing, is to sort the wheat from the chaff of add-on fueling solutions.
My standard is that any claim made should be demonstrated by a measurement that another could repeat if they so desired. Roger
I have no problem understanding the mapping concept and have no doubt John has figured out the fueling and ignition maps and numbers.
I understand that there are open loop and closed loop areas of the map, I am not sure how well these areas have been separated. O2 sensor is chased only in the closed loop sections of lambda which are idle and part load (cruising) at low throttle openings and load. Beyond that the engine runs on maps only.
John has done an excellent job (as I've said many times) learning to read and write the ePROMs of the Motronic. He has a fairly good handle on the R1100 tables but I'm surprised about claims he's made about other-than-lambda=1 Closed Loop. I continue my challenge to have him show me any document that describes this.
I also understand that narrow band O2 sensor can only chase lambda = 1 and has no idea how rich or how lean the mixture is.
Therefore I am having problems with Johns explanation of ability to chase any lambda ratio.
Since it uses the lambda sensor as the standard that its iterative (high-low-high-low) routines converge around, those routines can only converge around the standard of the external O2 sensor in the exhaust. John has stated many times that there are lambda tables that allow the Motronic to converge other than to lambda=1. It just isn't so.
I think you are also waiting for an answer to your question about access time on the chips. John claims the Motronic runs faster with his chip because it in newer and has faster access times, you say it doesn't. I agree with you.
Additionally concept of long term adaptation is also not fully understood in this particular control unit. Does it really blanket the whole map?
Yes it really blankets the whole map. It is very easy for the Closed Loop routine to calculate the short term factors cell by cell (in the closed loop areas) and then to calculate averages from the whole array of of short term trims to calculate average Long Term Trims.
The reason why you want this behavior in an EFI system is simple too. Let's say you had a perfect fuel table for gasoline. Now the rider fills up with gasoline that is 10% ethanol. The entire fuel table needs to be made richer by 4% since that is how much leaner 10% ethanol is than gasoline. The Motronic does this by first figuring out all the short term adjustments in the Closed Loop area and then updating the Long Term adjustments that get applied to the whole map.
Just adding a bit more complexity take the 10% ethanol example and introduce injectors that squirt 5% less fuel, and a fuel pressure regulator that is 10% low (5% less fuel flow for a 10% pressure change). Without Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation and Long Term Fuel Trims that apply to the whole map, WOT would be 4%+5%+5% lean, 14% in total. That would mean if the perfect fuel table were designed for 13.2:1 at WOT, 14% leaner would lead to an actual AFR of 15.0:1 !!! This is why we have short term and long term trims. And why the long term trims affect the whole map.
If the map is changed in the closed loop area and the O2 sensor is unable to bring it back at some point it will give up and revert to the predetermined value (back to the map). I have no idea what long term problems (if any) this would create for the catalytic converter.
The Closed Loop routine has a +/-20% range. If you go outside that range, the Motronic throws a Lambda Control fault and stays stuck at the high end or low end of the range.
Main reason that the O2 sensor was ever introduced was to keep the mixture oscillating in the perfect range to allow the cat to do its job. Other than that maps are all the system needs to function properly.
Before we get bogged down in screenshots lets get the concepts straight.
This is what I'm trying to help John do so that he can make chips that really do what riders want. A few posts ago I outlined the ideal chip for John to build for Closed Loop bikes. That chip I would help him test. However if he continues to claim that LC-2s "confuse" the Motronic (which they don't) I don't know how far I can get.
Hello John.
I also admire your patience and ability to communicate highly technical subject in a foreign language. I would like to think that I have nothing invested in this subject other than my time and desire for knowledge.
I am looking at your reply to my original post and there are a couple of questions that I have.
1. Lambda Enable/Disable value. I am assuming this is a parameter that is used to tell the ECU to either look at O2 sensor or not. Is this value global (for the whole map) or is there a separate input for each cell?
2. Your lambda tables from what I gather is a last correction factor in the calculation of fuel injector pulse duration. I am assuming there is a main fuel map and than this lambda correction factor is used to fine tune the mixture. Is this correct? As I said my main issue is that I know there is no way for the system to "chase" value of lambda. If this table is the correction factor (CF) where END_FUEL = MAP_FUEL * CF that would make much more sense. Maybe calling it fuel correction table instead of lambda table would understanding easier to some people.
3. Am I correct in assuming that while you are paying close attention to the AFR while you are tuning the chip the operation of the chip in the bike is open loop only?
Thank you and keep up the good work.
Esmir
The maps that John has found are for other factors, related to other sensors. For instance, there is a table in the Motronic that is fuel-enrichment based on rate of throttle change, and oil temperature. I suspect what John thinks are Lambda tables are some of the dozen or so "other" correction tables that he is as-yet not aware of.
During Closed Loop, the final correction factor to the fuel pulse MUST keep the O2 level in the exhaust very near Lambda=1. You can't just make the injection pulse leaner or richer at the last moment without "breaking" the Closed Loop function. So calling it the last correction factor doesn't work as an explanation. In the past I have sent John lists of tables that he should look for.
One other thing, notice that he has removed the X and Y axis lables. He finally admitted yesterday that he doesn't know what they are. I applaud that honest answer. And John also said he doesn't need to know exactly what they are. That is also true but it would have helped the discussion if he had said so in the first place rather than telling me the units in America are different.
Although I must seem like Javert in Les Miserables at times, all I'm seeking is the truth on how our bikes work. People like me and John have put a lot of time into discovering the secrets that BMW and Bosch have worked hard to hide. Because there have been so many secrets, you have IAT-shifters that are said to lower air temperature readings and thereby richen fueling. BMW could have come out right away and explained why that won't work but they've been silent. If BMW had spoken up, riders would have save about $1,000,000 on those parts worldwide.
Question for John: the fueling tables in your last post are too small. They are only 8X10. I think you're only seeing part of the table which must be more like the R1100 something like 16X18. An 8X10 table wouldn't have enough resolution for the small throttle angles.
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