Fuel controller

younger06 said:

Please, someone stop this degrading into the usual HT vs TT slagging match/debate/discussion.

P
L
E
A
S
E
!

Sent from a U11

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If, as I have said previous, there is evidence of wrong doing it should be reported to the appropriate authorities.

It is fact that TT falsified details on FB, then claimed it was a customer what done it.

Fabricated a Police complaint and a crf no.

If people prefer not to use HT, that is their choice, but not if it may relate to continued falsehoods.

There are lots of varied ways to improve your bike. I would personally prefer what/where someone went to and what improvements they felt, without the need to slag off or attack any competition like spoilt children.

That's my tuppence worth, happy new year hopefully.



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Tractors are go said:

If, as I have said previous, there is evidence of wrong doing it should be reported to the appropriate authorities.

It is fact that TT falsified details on FB, then claimed it was a customer what done it.

Fabricated a Police complaint and a crf no.

If people prefer not to use HT, that is their choice, but not if it may relate to continued falsehoods.

There are lots of varied ways to improve your bike. I would personally prefer what/where someone went to and what improvements they felt, without the need to slag off or attack any competition like spoilt children.

That's my tuppence worth, happy new year hopefully.



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I agree with you........I'm just tired of every thread about tuning or fueling turning into this.

Sent from a U11

OKAY - back to the OP - I have had a TC with Hilltop update, power commander AND AFXIED - in all cases I stuck with standard headers and cat - I tried decat and it delivered a perceived improvement BUT increased noise and vibration not so good for touring to got rid.

I would dismiss power commander, had an impact in smoothness and grunt BUT I felt that the changes were adapted out over time. Also the cabling and other gubbings were a potential point of failure (although didn’t).

AF XIED units are a partial solution as stated above BUT do dial in a much smoother on/off and low throttle experience and some extra grunt. The 4500rpm “hole” is not removed but appears somewhat reduced in impact. The improvements do not seem to have dissipated over time.

In terms of Hilltop, I don’t care about what people think...what I know is that the bike felt smoother and faster. I dismissed the supposed 17 BHP gain as tosh but frankly thought the cost Vs change in riding experience worth it at the time. HOWEVER my perception was that theses adaptations DID dissipate over time BUT that could easily have been the TBs out of balance as anything else.

On this last point....the TBs being slightly out of balance probably contributes a significant amount to a rough, vibes and snatch experience. SO before you do anything, ensure properly balanced....stepper motors parked etc.

IF you then want smoother and more low down grunt then would go for AFXIED units....as others have said, you can always transfer or sell on. Still got the TC and every time I ride an LC including the 1250, I still prefer it.

oldnfat said:

OKAY - back to the OP - I have had a TC with Hilltop update, power commander AND AFXIED - in all cases I stuck with standard headers and cat - I tried decat and it delivered a perceived improvement BUT increased noise and vibration not so good for touring to got rid.

I would dismiss power commander, had an impact in smoothness and grunt BUT I felt that the changes were adapted out over time. Also the cabling and other gubbings were a potential point of failure (although didn’t).

AF XIED units are a partial solution as stated above BUT do dial in a much smoother on/off and low throttle experience and some extra grunt. The 4500rpm “hole” is not removed but appears somewhat reduced in impact. The improvements do not seem to have dissipated over time.

In terms of Hilltop, I don’t care about what people think...what I know is that the bike felt smoother and faster. I dismissed the supposed 17 BHP gain as tosh but frankly thought the cost Vs change in riding experience worth it at the time. HOWEVER my perception was that theses adaptations DID dissipate over time BUT that could easily have been the TBs out of balance as anything else.

On this last point....the TBs being slightly out of balance probably contributes a significant amount to a rough, vibes and snatch experience. SO before you do anything, ensure properly balanced....stepper motors parked etc.

IF you then want smoother and more low down grunt then would go for AFXIED units....as others have said, you can always transfer or sell on. Still got the TC and every time I ride an LC including the 1250, I still prefer it.

Click to expand...

Do you think, it is possible you just got used to the 'extra' benefits and that is why you feel they dissipated?

With the decatt, was there an end can too, I found a better improvement with both, and the replacing the headers over the end can.

Totally agree, unless you ensure everything is tickity boo first, you won't gain the benefits.

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I replaced the Can first then the Headers too, BUT the Standard Headers soon went back on because the noise the Bike produced with a Complete System Change was hideous IMO.
The Bike felt like it had a bit more Get Up n Go but it wasn't worth it to me.
Standard Headers, Aftermarket Can and AF-Xieds (set at 7) works really well for me, 2-Up or Solo....

My twin cam was standard and only on 6000 miles when I got it 18 months ago. It ran ok but a definite flat spot around 4000 rpm. I had it hilltopped which appeared to sort the flat spot, then fitted Remus decat pipes and a Leo vince can. Great fuelling from 2000rpm to redline and even more of a pleasure to ride now..pipes and can were secondhand so total cost was less than £700.

giving definitive answers when we don't know the map version installed in the bike is a bit like arguing over the taste of chocolate when we have no idea if its fruit and nut, 75% cocoa solids or milk at 30%

in the K24 BMSKP7 folder there are over 30 maps that suit this ECU and around 7 for the older GS, two of which I tried

one was great and fast and the other is smooth below 4k.

I have just had it back from a pUMA case where they must have knobbled the adaptions on the naff map. The 1.5k flat spot from 4 k is now only 500 rpm wide but still a massive chasm of doom and I'd rather have the old map back but they won't do it. It seemed rubbish when they gave it back strangled even worse at the top that in was. But after a few miles the top end picked up a lot and wasn't far off the original map but that dead spot at 4300 is a joke.

you can look up the one in your bike with motoscan app and I guess GS911



Bosch BMS-K PLUS R1200GS coding index 02

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;;KA_Freigabedatum: 17.12.2007
ORIGINAL Fast. runs like a dog below 3.5k rpm, creates knock in the summer at 6300 rpm in high temperatures at 11/10ths riding


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;;ZL_System: MX-Y.Z
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;;KA_Freigabedatum: 05.05.2008
CURRENT RELEASE. for hex head bikes and garbage. smoother for moped riders, far far too rich below 11C in the cold, but good after 21 Centigrade, sleeps from 4300 to 4900 rpm @ 80% or above throttle, can be horribly gutless from there to the line, when that happens might as well be 800cc

Hi there...

Thanks for your very constructive comments. How can I know what version of map I have please? Would I require the GS911?

I have checked the throttle balance according to factory service manual. I have not done anything to the stepper motors though?



Thanks

R,




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buy a good adaptor gadget and the free one of these might lets u see but the paid version aren't much and its quite powerful

https://translate.google.com/transl...u=https://www.motoscan.de/&edit-text=&act=url

I bought my adaptor direct - but there a place claims to be UK that does for about the same price. The car coding boys recently woke up to the fact this adaptor is one of the best and most suitable ones for BWMs - cheap nasties wont code TPMS sensors. don't forget the short cable to adapt between the old round diagnostic joke back to the modern world cars mandated in 1999 (bikes only got in 2017)

https://www.wgsoft.de/shop/obd-2-komplettsysteme/unicarscan/

Tractors are go said:

Do you think, it is possible you just got used to the 'extra' benefits and that is why you feel they dissipated?

With the decatt, was there an end can too, I found a better improvement with both, and the replacing the headers over the end can.

Totally agree, unless you ensure everything is tickity boo first, you won't gain the benefits.

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Click to expand...

Nope, my finely tuned and highly accurate arse dyno tells me AFXIED still good when the rest went off the boil

Interested in what the conditions were that you are experiencing a hole at 4500 rpm.
I have just checked a graph of my 2012 GS with AF-XIED`s. But set at 8 at the time. ( normally run it on 7)
Throttle Full (100%)
RPM 4530
MPH 76.3
Air Temp 9.1 Degrees C
Ignition advance 25.5 BTDC
Air Fuel ratio cyl 1 - 12.95 to 1
Air fuel ratio cyl 2 - 12.88 to 1
These air fuel ratios look ok for a road bike in these conditions.
recorded on a level road, there are not any dips in the graph.
This is obviously in open loop.
Do you think that the dip you experienced was during the change from closed to open loop.

Benhur Malta said:

Hi there...

Thanks for your very constructive comments. How can I know what version of map I have please? Would I require the GS911?

I have checked the throttle balance according to factory service manual. I have not done anything to the stepper motors though?



Thanks

R,




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Hello
What device did you use to check the throttle body balance? It's a finnicky job, syncing them, but if you get it right the difference is like night and day.

Mistacat said:

Interested in what the conditions were that you are experiencing a hole at 4500 rpm.
.

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bike fully warmed up, try third gear, ride at 3000rpm and now just hold the throttle on its end stop and feel how the bike accelerates... (quite perversely any UK fuel you like never had any impact whatsoever)

the stock bike would feel rough and hesitate a bit at 4400 to 4800 rpm and hold back in higher gears around here (taking longer to accelerate through this phase of the rev range than it should)
same BMW map, CAT sensors off and my PC3 mapping, it would go through this point without a care other than rough feel, no power or torque drop (any gear, any revs, any throttle) linear curve of perfectness from 2500 to 7800 rpm.
later BMW map and my PC3 I now had a massive 1500 rpm lag the bike struggled to get past from 4000 to 5500 RPM. Struggling through that disaster the bike had far less power from 5600 rpm and didn’t want to get past 7000 rpm I spent 6 month trying any and radical PC3 fuelling to try and irradiate it... I could slightly lessen but not remove.

Fitted 4 new coils, perceived change with better smoothness but performance was even worse ! Raised a puma case and went back to zero map and refitted CAT sensors waiting for the slot in the workshop. Shocked how this change made the later map quite good below 4000 rpm. But performance from 4000 was that of an F800 with glitches and jerks that I hated and no top end at all.

Got the bike back from BMW they would not revert back to the original map. But somehow they did something (adoptions??) and the 1500 rpm hole was far smaller. Closer to the original 500 rpm hole, so it’s now similar but 20% worse than the original map that you could work around by changing the fuelling. But now you can’t fix by fuel map changes, I believe they now knobble the ignition curve and I can’t get at that. Top end when I first got it back from puma case was nothing. I was going to ride back and hand the bike back..... but as I accelerated hard it picked up a bit, over the next 3 miles it woke up and was almost back making proper power and revving out cleanly. Odd, I guess it was some adaption thing but I don’t understand it.

But the original map and my PC3 mapping was still way better. I actually bought another ECU with exact part numbers (hoping its got the right map, but need to code out old immobiliser and then hack the mileage back to match mine....) that’s another story – I have the car based tools to do it and videos of how.... but although the ECU is listed under BMW car tools but the map I want isn’t

Mistacat said:

Do you think that the dip you experienced was during the change from closed to open loop.

Click to expand...

I think originally it a noise and emission designed in glitch, they must have tested my map and found it was too good... so invented the next one that passed the tests and its still the one they give out today... but its hideous. there were three fixes in the last one

1) improve idle stability
2) cold start enrichment
3) knock sensor sensitivity

idle was better
cold start is worse (it was good, now its too rich)
knock sensor is the main one I think has ruined the map completely and is unfixable - two phases where I think they might think things could be considered an issue. The 4500rpm harshness - but in my mind it engine design related as its there any fuel and revs and temp any time, and a 6300rpm high temp knock that you can find in the summer at 11/10ths (always at high engine and high ambient conditions, oddly 99 octane makes no impact)

Third gear 3000 rpm full throttle as suggested the acceleration is clean all the way up and the air fuel ratio graph is smooth and consistent.
The only drop off is the advance curve peaks at 4000 rpm - 28.5 degrees and drops a couple of degrees after that.
As you are using a PC3 the extent that you can vary the injector pulse width should be able to dial in your required fueling with the lambda sensors disconnected. Is the Ecu showing a reversion to lambda 1.0 with them disconnected.
I have played with the PC3, PC5 and autotune also experimented with a Techlusion just to see how rich or lean I could go in closed loop and still have the ecu correct it.
Also it was interesting to see how quickly it learnt and on removing the Techlusion you could see the altered fueling learnt and how quickly it adapted back.
The only problem I had with the PC`s was the stability, I found myself plugging the laptop in and altering the fueling every day even when touring.
Out of interest what year is your bike, what device are you using to record your AFR`s and what is your fuel pressure.
I can not tell you what the BMW base map is that I have, I do have an ELM 327 and adaptor cable but not the top paid for Motoscan app. I am reluctant to pay for this as I can sort everything else with the GS911, Innovate LM2 etc.
you say your cold start is now too rich what is the recorded afr.
I think you are right regarding 4500 rpm harshness ( engine character ) I cant see any problem with the fueling there.
Knock sensor sensitivity 12.5 to 1 compression ratio, high engine load on a very hot day?

On another note it was suggested earlier that the AF-xied was just an over priced resistor.
My query on that would be how does a resistor increase the voltage generated by a lambda sensor from 0.45 volts (14.7 Afr ) to say .9 volts enriching the mixture ?
If more information is required regarding lambda offset devices, study the Innovate LC1 & LC2 which have been around for a long time used on cars and from which the AF-xied was derived.

Mac One said:

Hello
What device did you use to check the throttle body balance? It's a finnicky job, syncing them, but if you get it right the difference is like night and day.

Click to expand...

Hi there...

I have a home made manometer which uses hydraulic fluid in transparent piping...its very accurate at getting the balance spot on as trailled on a number of different bikes...the only problem such a device has is that its accurate at BALANCING rather than identifying the pressures on both sides (if both vacuums were too low you would not know, if they were equally low)

R.

Mistacat said:

As you are using a PC3 the extent that you can vary the injector pulse width should be able to dial in your required fueling with the lambda sensors disconnected. Is the Ecu showing a reversion to lambda 1.0 with them disconnected.

Click to expand...

yes but after the MAP change by BMW its not really a fueling issue. I wonder if they went crazy and made the knock so sensitive it just kills power over nothing. Its not like the high temp hard riding 6300rpm bit. The later map is consistent hole all the time.

Mistacat said:

The only problem I had with the PC`s was the stability, I found myself plugging the laptop in and altering the fueling every day even when touring.

Click to expand...

touring outside UK, the Euro trash they pedal makes it gutless and run like a dog. Never felt adjusting the map would help (apart from maybe idle that almost doesn't on their stuff), the thing is you have part UK, part there stuff and in dodgy speed cam / congested northern France you don't notice for a few fill ups. Its when you come back to UK and fill up the change is instant. All of a sudden 95 octane UK feels better than a remap and an end can.

Mistacat said:

Out of interest what year is your bike, what device are you using to record your AFR`s and what is your fuel pressure.

Click to expand...

Aug 2007 first registered in Jan 2008 - where they did an I-level update from factory K024-07-05-520 (meaning they had bugs at the factory as 520 is a revision on from the original release of that era's software) at first reg got K024-08-01-500 I have no record of the map BMW built it with. And the other day it got K024-18-07-500 (with the same map they gave me 18 months earlier K024-17-07-500)

Mistacat said:

I can not tell you what the BMW base map is that I have, I do have an ELM 327 and adaptor cable but not the top paid for Motoscan app.

Click to expand...

I was reading after I posted, I thought the free version of Motoscan will tell you the version

Mistacat said:

you say your cold start is now too rich what is the recorded afr.

Click to expand...

I think they only released it to sort emissions, then made them worse (when cold) than needed, it chugs in cold temps, never did before. Not read afr

Mistacat said:

I think you are right regarding 4500 rpm harshness ( engine character ) I cant see any problem with the fueling there.
Knock sensor sensitivity 12.5 to 1 compression ratio, high engine load on a very hot day?

Click to expand...

07719873 is the knobbled knock map
07717143 is the livelier one (with fractionally too little knock control)

Mistacat said:

On another note it was suggested earlier that the AF-xied was just an over priced resistor.
My query on that would be how does a resistor increase the voltage generated by a lambda sensor from 0.45 volts (14.7 Afr ) to say .9 volts enriching the mixture ?
If more information is required regarding lambda offset devices, study the Innovate LC1 & LC2 which have been around for a long time used on cars and from which the AF-xied was derived.

Click to expand...

no idea if he's right

https://www.ktmduke390forum.com/forum/how-diy/43871-diy-o2-sensor-manipulator.html

Benhur Malta said:

Hi there...

I have a home made manometer which uses hydraulic fluid in transparent piping...its very accurate at getting the balance spot on as trailled on a number of different bikes...the only problem such a device has is that its accurate at BALANCING rather than identifying the pressures on both sides (if both vacuums were too low you would not know, if they were equally low)

R.

Click to expand...

with the paid version of the motoscan app you can reset the idle speed stepper motors.... First do the valve clearances, new air filter and spark plugs, reset stepper motors give it a blast come back and set up the throttle bodies on a hot engine at 2000 rpm.... with a small fan blowing on the headers / and oil cooler.... redo steeper motors, give a spin redo throttle bodies...