Fuel controller

Mistacat said:

What gear are you in and at what speed are you doing when you snap the throttle open,
The reason I ask this is when I snapped the throttle open to full throttle 6th gear at 50 mph the bike would stumble.

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every gear on the bike 3k onwards - it was like this from new. On the original map it was really irritating and clearly there - PC3 removed it entirely. You could snap it open to the end stop from 2k rpm any gear, it just lifts the wheel and tries to smash into the red line, as if the map was written by a grown up.

on the later map instantly the bike changed with a mega trough of hell between 4200 to 5600 clearly obvious in any upper throttle range (and every gear) and on full throttle the missing go was an utter joke. I couldn't get the PC3 to do anything sensible to help for 2 years.

After years of this hideous mega trough a BMW puma case (trying to get the better original map back on the bike) wiped the adaptions and the bike made a massive leap back to life ! With much of the hole dropping away unless above 80% throttle, and was now a 500 rpm band of gutlessness... made more obvious because from 5500 it pulled like it used to on the original map. AKA much more go and smashed in to the red line like the original map used to.

then this year I realised over 4 occasions, (everything as BMW does it, PC3 on the bench) on the later map, after you reset the adaptions it runs almost like it should. But still with the hole - exactly as the original map did for 500rpm on full throttle. But then around 200 miles it always adapts to gibberish most of the time making anything under 3k <20% throttle plain disgusting to ride.

So, filled with 99 esso, did a service, re did adaptions, all OK (still has the 500 rpm hole on full throttle starting from 4500). Then at 150 miles disconnect CAT sensors re introduce PC3 (and without BMWs map having adapted everywhere to utter madness before you even started with the PC3 - it all makes sense and the PC3 can make changes you want and the bike does as its told - just like it did on the original map).

So having got the PC3 to behave after 3 years of trying, its all good unless on full throttle - where its now a 200rpm dip - missing say 5BHP (instead missing 25bhp and 30lbs of torque over 500 rpm the way BMW do it). As I ride hard through this anytime the engine's warm - 80% of my bike riding finds this chasm of hell - which is why for me getting it back to normal the way a PC3 on the original map could, matters.

Mistacat said:

The only conclusion that I arrived at was that the Load calculated by the ecu RPM / throttle position/selected gear etc was causing the hole to prevent excess load on the transmission.
When an appropriate gear is selected before giving it full throttle I have not had a problem the bike revs to the red line cleanly in each gear.

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if you have TC this messes with your head... put in S mode (BMW words for GS off road mode) and a lot of throttle responsiveness issues disappear and it revs out more cleanly - in fact when playing with fuelling as it can't produce enough power to light up a tyre or flip it - turn off TC, and try over the very same conditions

Default it will ALWAYS hold back due the TC interference on a stock bike with stock tyres, whenever large throttle settings are used
Default it will ALWAYS hold back due the TC interference whenever full throttle is used even on a dry, gripey road, with hot road tyres
S mode it can still hold back due the TC interference on a dry, gripey road, with hot road tyres (but its rare)
OFF it will always do what the map and the throttle let it do

On a pre TC bike no traction control with a pillion on board 3rd gear and give it a fist full from 6k rpm and the front end comes up very quickly, this results in a jab in the ribs and "pack it in" from SHMBO.
The TC will not do this and I put it down to the very subtle traction control (rather than any poor fuelling issues) which does a fantastic job of controlling wheel slip, wheelies etc.
If I want to ride in hooligan mode then I have taken the wrong bike out of the garage.
I believe the "S" mode uses a less sensitive traction control for off road use which would explain your observations.

I meant traction control not Twin Cam,

the first Twin cam I ever rode I found it holding back between 4000 to 5000 RPM when accelerating hard. They'd warmed the engine up and handed it over with cold tyres. Within 200m of leaving the dealership I thought the bike had a fault/misfire… then noticed the light flickering. 10 mins working out how to get to S mode, and the fault was totally gone. And it was 20% quicker up the road.

As for ripping it hard... you can't in the default ASR mode... and then the other day even in S and the front came up big time away from a set of lights... (doesn't normally) ...OK that's a nuisance, so wound it back around 80% throttle to save it getting too silly, then as it coming down with 3 foot of air banged it back on max and got the stupid misfire cough from hell. Of course that unwanted intervention smashes the front on the ground and make it wobble everywhere. That ridiculous and unnecessary behaviour makes you really glad u fitted ASR

When using the PC3, is the O2 sensor connected and in use by the ECU?
I've only seen the PC connected once, and in that case, the O2 sensor was not used.

Anyway, if the engine does not get a proper signal from the O2 sensors, it reverts to limp mode. And further changes to the adaptive map will not be done.
This means that if a unit that requires a disconnected O2 sensor, reset of the adaptive map before any tuning is a must. The reason is that if the bike ever is left without a battery for a few hours, the adaptive map will be cleared.
The adaptive map is always part of the ECU equation in closed loop mode.

no (but I did try with them on in the middle of the later map madness to see what would happen and also tried a booster plug)

PC3 added around 5000k miles with CAT sensors off and it helped lots and worked well for 20k miles

when it got the new map, PC3 was on the bike and I knew I needed to update to suit whatever changed - but couldn't get to play ball ever

went 100% stock with PC3 on the bench - and that's the bit earlier about behaves OK for 200 miles then goes mad (note the flat spot is there whenever its 100% stock old map or later map)… also worth noting the "mad scenario" is very much like the original map - un ridable nastiness round town, just like when it was new.

current status - after 150 miles of adaption disconnected CAT sensors and the bike never went mad - so then re added PC3 to tidy up the emission relates silly ness they have to meet - and it all makes sense

in the middle of the 100% stock and later map, I got a GS911 and the CAT sensors reading and trend all doing what you'd expect - I don't know why it was always going mad

botus said:

no (but I did try with them on in the middle of the later map madness to see what would happen and also tried a booster plug)

PC3 added around 5000k miles with CAT sensors off and it helped lots and worked well for 20k miles

when it got the new map, PC3 was on the bike and I knew I needed to update to suit whatever changed - but couldn't get to play ball ever

went 100% stock with PC3 on the bench - and that's the bit earlier about behaves OK for 200 miles then goes mad (note the flat spot is there whenever its 100% stock old map or later map)… also worth noting the "mad scenario" is very much like the original map - un ridable nastiness round town, just like when it was new.

current status - after 150 miles of adaption disconnected CAT sensors and the bike never went mad - so then re added PC3 to tidy up the emission relates silly ness they have to meet - and it all makes sense

in the middle of the 100% stock and later map, I got a GS911 and the CAT sensors reading and trend all doing what you'd expect - I don't know why it was always going mad

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I get the feeling that whenever the O2 sensors get involved the fueling turns to shit.

Even if the GS911 does not show out of range values, it base it's readings on voltage from the O2 sensor(s).

If at all possible, I would have checked if the sensors offer correct values vs oxygen-level. Any chance of getting hold and try out sensors from a known to run well bike? ?

does any of this help

std (but not running)



after wiping adaptions



tickover

botus said:

does any of this help

std (but not running)

after wiping adaptions

tickover

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I understand that this post is meant to show images, but nothing is visible on my computer...

Anyway, while we are at it:
I am of the impression that when engines are new, before any adaptions have been made yet, the OEM fueling is set on the slightly rich side. This makes it easy for the factory workers to test the engine of the assembly line, and ensure a workable and well running engine 'out of the box'.

The adaptions may be cleared by the GS911. So, if, after clearing the adaptions, the O2 sensors are disconnected, the engine should be running on the mapping only, without being leaned out based on O2 feedback. If the engine then runs ok, this will confirm that the ignition is ok and probably no false air in the system.
Then, after a couple of tanks og gas, reconnect the O2 sensors will reveal the full effect of what the O2 sensors will do to the engine...

The speed at which the adaptions take place are quite surprising.
A friend lent me a Wunderlich Techlusion fuel controller to experiment with, these work in a similar way to the power commander by increasing or decreasing injector pulse width.
I connected this to one cylinder and richened the mixture ( increased the injector pulse width) I left the stock narrow band lambda sensors in place and monitored the air fuel ratio with a wide band lambda sensor installed next to the stock sensor and monitored with an Innovate Motorsports LM2.
The mixture very went rich as I adjusted the Techlusion to max. within a couple of minutes the system leaned the mixture back to 14.7 to 1.
I then removed the Techlusion and started the engine this cylinder ran very lean showing that it had learnt the previous setting and within a couple of minutes had richened up to 14.7 to1.
This gave me the impression that the two or three tanks of fuel are only needed to fill adaptions in the maps for areas that are not used very often. The main areas ( commonly used) are populated fairly quickly.

Mistacat do u see my pictures ? of the GS 911 info and one of the lambda trace?

Mistacat said:

The speed at which the adaptions take place are quite surprising.
A friend lent me a Wunderlich Techlusion fuel controller to experiment with, these work in a similar way to the power commander by increasing or decreasing injector pulse width.
I connected this to one cylinder and richened the mixture ( increased the injector pulse width) I left the stock narrow band lambda sensors in place and monitored the air fuel ratio with a wide band lambda sensor installed next to the stock sensor and monitored with an Innovate Motorsports LM2.
The mixture very went rich as I adjusted the Techlusion to max. within a couple of minutes the system leaned the mixture back to 14.7 to 1.
I then removed the Techlusion and started the engine this cylinder ran very lean showing that it had learnt the previous setting and within a couple of minutes had richened up to 14.7 to1.
This gave me the impression that the two or three tanks of fuel are only needed to fill adaptions in the maps for areas that are not used very often. The main areas ( commonly used) are populated fairly quickly.

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If you have the ability to verify that your O2 sensors are working, and the AFR is indeed within the range of 14,7, then I think an AF-XIED would make wonders for your bike.

I have been using the AF-XIED`s on my bikes since they came on the market , for around 100k miles over 2 bikes.
I followed the development with great interest, Nightrider were making Lambda offset devices for Harley Davidsons but the BMW system was a lot more complicated.
I had played with lambda offset using an Innovate motorsports LC1 these were a bit too bulky to fit a pair of them on a GS1200 but were ideal for cars.
In the early days Roger04RT on this and other sites used and documented the fitting and results of using an Innovate LC1 on an Oilhead BMW ( 1 lambda sensor on these bikes).
Roger collaborated with Nightrider to produce the AF-XIED`s and marketed them thro Beemer Boneyard who previously were agents for Power Commander.
I have played with Pc3`s on Japanese bikes with basic fuel injection systems with some success.
I have also used the PC5 on an R1200GS even tried there Autotune with wide band sensors without much success.
The BMW fuelling is so complicated that manipulating the the lambda signal and letting the BMW system do the rest I feel is best.
The Dual Channel Innovate LM2 will record the air fuel ratio from both cylinders and at the same time record data from pre selected channels connected to the ECU via the diagnostic port.
The data can be viewed using Logworks either in graph form or you can build a virtual dashboard to play it back.
Attached is a snippet of graph showing the fuelling of AF-XIED`s on setting 7.

[/IMG]

I can`t see any pictures just the writing.
I would like to see the .csv file recorded by the GS911 during the point at which you are having these problems.
If you have this file I can PM you my email address so that you can send it.

Mistacat said:

I can`t see any pictures just the writing.
I would like to see the .csv file recorded by the GS911 during the point at which you are having these problems.
If you have this file I can PM you my email address so that you can send it.

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not got that at the moment.... I did some pics on my laptop but they don't want to show up here ....and at the moment the bike has the sensors off

botus said:

not got that at the moment.... I did some pics on my laptop but they don't want to show up here ....and at the moment the bike has the sensors off

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If you hit the link to the pictures, it brings you to a Mercedes Benz Forum media section, and it requires a log in.
Perhaps if you log in and change the status of the pictures from 'Private' to Public' will make a difference....

botus said:

dealer tools, motoscan paid version or reset vehicle adaptions on the last version for GS911 wifi and it resets stepper motors as it completes

on motoscan its under engine or service, you just tick the box and the tool makes them clunk about, running to max min movement and then settle where it thinks it should - takes 30 seconds engine off

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Hey,

Sorry I missed this for some reason. I did it the other day after cleaning the idle actuator and the completion message was 'Turn off engine' [in red]. I retried it a couple of times and just thought that meant it was done and I rode around and realised no difference.

Luck had it that my engine stalled due to a loose sidestand/switch and I decided to reset the idle actuator again before being certain that was there cause. The error message however this time was ... Idle actuator calibration successful [in green].

This time it made a big difference. The jerkiness around 2k had not disappeared but is definitely much smoother.

Apparently you should do it when you're bike use in a good state (valve clearances in good state, etc...). I have just done the full 24k service with valves, spark plugs, oil change, including new idle air hoses and idle actuator clean etc..., so it felt like a good time to do it.

It's always a good feeling when things work out.

Yannick

yes must do it engine off

clean the gunk - do a reset
do valve clearances
clean/new air filter
new spark plugs
go for a run set up throttle body balance (this can make massive difference)

botus said:

yes must do it engine off

clean the gunk - do a reset
do valve clearances
clean/new air filter
new spark plugs
go for a run set up throttle body balance (this can make massive difference)

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Nice. I didn't realise you should do the throttle body balancing. I just tried to look up how to do it, but most threads seem to say to stay away from it as much as possible as it should stay in sync throughout the lifetime from the factory and could be up the bike real bad. Is that right?

Do you have any advice on doing it? If I'm wrong, I'd be up for trying it.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

knutk said:

If you hit the link to the pictures, it brings you to a Mercedes Benz Forum media section, and it requires a log in.
Perhaps if you log in and change the status of the pictures from 'Private' to Public' will make a difference....

Click to expand...

links earlier are secret squirrel section - now on a public bit - a short trend of the sensors on my bike



before wiping adaptions



post wipe out