Style !! 'Crossed up' V the New boys.

Giles

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Things like this interest me! It will I suspect have limited interest here .... :p (Maybe the few that chit chat on the moto GP thread!).


So I got my first big bikes (started doing track days etc) in the 80's. Back then, racing was 125's, 250's and 500 and my hero was in particular Mick Doohan. So as you do, I sort of liked him and his style and modelled myself on him a bit.

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-RxvnCW2/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-RxvnCW2/0/e39946f1/O/IMG_1524.jpg" alt=""></a>


Recently, I have started doing a few more track days with Rapid, (training as a track coach, but very much out my comfort zone as a seasoned road rider) and some of the coaches have given me a friendly, but hard time on my apparently old fashioned style telling me I was 'crossed up' (as it is now known). I was completely unaware and it felt fine to me? But interested to always learn and develop ive done some homework ...

'Crossed up' is the term they are giving the old school boys. And it wasn't just Doohan - they all did it;

Check out Rainey and Roberts too, and what they and Doohan are all doing, is sort of wrapping themselves around the side of the bike.


<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-ZPzGFDM/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-ZPzGFDM/0/507648f6/M/IMG_1530-M.jpg" alt=""></a>

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-FHjBZfS/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-FHjBZfS/0/19d009a4/M/IMG_1531-M.jpg" alt=""></a>

The modern way of thinking is that there is a flaw in this technique, (It worked for Doohan!) and that the error if you like, is that their chest and shoulders, (which sit on their hips) are all facing the wrong way. Have a closer look at the line from one shoulder to another in all of them. it doesn't face into the corner at all. So what you get is a head having to turn into a corner, across shoulders that are turned the opposite way;


<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-xjCwmQh/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-xjCwmQh/0/b4a4baa4/O/95C20F8E-8D91-4D56-A2AE-2A55EFCD1B74_1_201_a.jpg" alt=""></a>

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-MHnGPJL/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-MHnGPJL/0/8ecbca65/M/7C703BEA-6CB3-4087-8AC8-D7D74335D032_1_201_a-M.jpg" alt=""></a>


And here is me, caught by the camera guy! Check out the old school 'crossed up style'!

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-G3NGpTt/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-G3NGpTt/0/66f15da1/L/E8AC6569-BEAC-4B52-8197-7D508CB84402_heic-L.jpg" alt=""></a>

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-MNxqnpv/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-MNxqnpv/0/7d358753/L/43B2B7F5-6120-4209-97C4-0DB084545EA1_heic-L.jpg" alt=""></a>

Imagine putting a camera on my chest, or a broom handle across my shoulders - completely facing the wrong way into the turn. And it all comes from this 'slide your knee forward' along the tank, which rotates your hips and faces your trunk incorrectly. 80's style! Very old fashioned and now i know what the track coaches are banging on about! I didn't before, but thanks to the photographer, I do now!


Now check out the new boys on the block with the newer style

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-LWBLThh/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-LWBLThh/0/85fc9e52/M/IMG_1528-M.jpg" alt="200"></a>

Imagine putting a broom handle across Fabian's shoulders, they are correctly facing the turn and his head is very neutral on his shoulders.

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-kS9v6dC/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-kS9v6dC/0/9e77679f/M/99B8773A-99F8-4CA3-9DFB-84F01879A701_1_201_a-M.jpg" alt="200"></a>

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-d8zKF67/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-d8zKF67/0/04458858/M/153100E0-61BB-4524-97A6-2DDD40B2AE18_1_201_a-M.jpg" alt=""></a>


So my personal journey (only cos im interested!), is to try and change that old style to new. And its really hard! After 30 odd years of riding in a particular way, to try and change a style, to not rotate my hips and to keep square on into the corner is hard.

Better here but work to do!

<a href="https://gileslamb.smugmug.com/Bike/i-kZvgP6m/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/Bike/i-kZvgP6m/0/bb1af5c1/M/dP53P7n-0%2521sizeoriginal-M.jpg" alt=""></a>
 
Things like this interest me....

Fair point there; i would have said you need to look at the grip levels the old boys had compared to today; i called the old style ; rodeo style and the best of them came to Europe as longtrack riders where being in a position to kick the back out all most speedway style brought them speed ; the unpredictabilty of slide; grip; then chucked from a fuckin helicopter was lot closer; the old style was more akin to supermoto which is a slower version of long track but using both sides of the tyre. The best test would be to stick a set of Doohans old wheels in an M1 and see how that pans out. The young moto 3 and 2 guys fit right into the Moto GP style. This is what makes Rossi that extra special; he won on Doohans old tackle aswell so to speak. You can never compare era to era because so much else has changed. Glad to see an old dude like yersen giving it a go tho; i've recently discovered how nice the lower power switch is on mine; i'll be cleaning the flies from the back of my helmet in no time;:D :beerjug:
I found a good piece on the tube some time ago but can't get the link on the screen; it might just change a few perseptions on how well some fat burds can jive;:D
 

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You may not believe this but the first thing I thought when I saw your last picture in the “a picture a day” thread was that your body position was completely Mick Dothan

I wish I’d posted it now !

I’ve seen the position comparisons of the 80s and 90s riders with nowadays and the explanations of why they’d got it wrong but as you say, it worked for them

A couple of notable exceptions at the time were James Whitham who always hung off far more “head first” and the first rider I ever saw getting his elbows down, long before anyone else did, Jean Philippe Ruggia
 

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You may not believe this but the first thing I thought when I saw your last picture in the “a picture a day” thread was that your body position was completely Mick Dothan

I wish I’d posted it now !

I’ve seen the position comparisons of the 80s and 90s riders with nowadays and the explanations of why they’d got it wrong but as you say, it worked for them

A couple of notable exceptions at the time were James Whitham who always hung off far more “head first” and the first rider I ever saw getting his elbows down, long before anyone else did, Jean Philippe Ruggia

Nice one leadfarmer; i'd forgot about JPR in the frog fag livery ; :beerjug:
 
I'm working my way back to Mike Hailwood style.
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You may not believe this but the first thing I thought when I saw your last picture in the “a picture a day” thread was that your body position was completely Mick Dothan

I wish I’d posted it now !

I’ve seen the position comparisons of the 80s and 90s riders with nowadays and the explanations of why they’d got it wrong but as you say, it worked for them

A couple of notable exceptions at the time were James Whitham who always hung off far more “head first” and the first rider I ever saw getting his elbows down, long before anyone else did, Jean Philippe Ruggia


Ha! James Whitham! yes he had a very unusual style! :beerjug:
 
Ha! James Whitham! yes he had a very unusual style! :beerjug:

Jamie Whitham was the first I say with the "modern" style too!
I think part of the difference is that their were no knee sliders back then whereas now they use their knees all the time so it aids in their directional rotation to be more in line.
 
Jamie Whitham was the first I say with the "modern" style too!
I think part of the difference is that their were no knee sliders back then whereas now they use their knees all the time so it aids in their directional rotation to be more in line.

Knee sliders came in with Sheene’s generation, they started by taping old visors to their leathers
 
Interesting,

How much of the original style was due to the bike itself?

Frame & engine technology from the 80's, isn't a patch on what it is now.

If Doohan and Rainey were to ride a modern bike would they ride the same way?

I'd hazard a guess and say yes.

would they be as competitive as they were then, again i'd say yes.

Thats the 10,000 hour rule coming into play .

I'll ask the obvious question

Are you wanting to change because you believe it will make you better?

or are you wanting to change because someone has pointed out things have changed, and you feel left behind? / pride??

Bear in mind using the 10,000 hour rule, your never going to get anywhere near in the timescale you have , so you'll loose your edge from the way you had.

The "if it aint broke dont fix" comes to mind.
 
I'll ask the obvious question

Are you wanting to change because you believe it will make you better?

or are you wanting to change because someone has pointed out things have changed, and you feel left behind? / pride??

Bear in mind using the 10,000 hour rule, your never going to get anywhere near in the timescale you have , so you'll loose your edge from the way you had.

The "if it aint broke dont fix" comes to mind.

Ha!

I guess the answer is, wanting to do things well. I wouldn't call myself a perfectionist ... fuck! far from it :D But if you going to do something ... do it well? Be the best you can be at things! :thumb2
 
I wouldn't dick about to much with your present style. It's like a golfer trying to change his swing and ending up worse for it.

At the end of the day, how many tenths of a second will it shave off your lap times. Be old school and be proud.:thumb2
 
How would they describe Graham Crosby's style?:D
 
Great thread , although I thought it was going to be about the Moto GP boys coming over the hill at Portimao “all crossed up”, some great images on Instagram :thumb
 
Ha! I noticed that! Some great images from the race live, setting themselves up for the bend before they crest the hill ...
 
That's me fecked then :D
Two questions though.

Do you think riding 'crossed up' particularly on the road where grip levels are not quite known to the extent of a track may cause a rider to subconsciously feel they're able to weight the outside of the bike?

Secondly, road bends are often relatively blind and even though position should give the view, another subconscious act could be to put the head where we feel we can see further?

Just a thought as I, like most of us probably are unable to ride fast enough to benefit from change.....or perhaps that's partly why we can't ride fast enough :D
 
I think also the American riders of the time nearly all came from a Flat track backgrounds so their style (Roberts in particular ) was informed by that........

I think I'm proper old style in so much as I ride 'body English' ie sit fairly upright and push the bike down beneath me but then my background is dirt bikes/Supermoto, I've never owned a sports bike and I'm a slow rider......

Interesting thread though :thumb2

Andres
 


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