Corner "swooping"? (Giles to the Batphone please.)

Posh Pete

Still got a pulse.
UKGSer Subscriber
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
19,232
Reaction score
991
Location
Embra, Scotland
My latest associate was telling me he's been reading last week's MCN, wherein someone from Rapid Training (I think he said) did a piece on cornering. The RT bod commented on "swooping" into corners as being bad form but, it seems, didn't define what he meant by that. So I got asked! :augie

Not having read the item, my guess was he was referring to the over eager rider who accelerates into a corner without trying to assess it properly before hand and therefore risks ending up in the hedge (or worse)!

We'd done cornering, chapter and verse, the week before so it allowed a bit of a recap.

Maybe someone who read the item could comment or Giles re your Rapid Training experience?
 
e001fe5eb6b137b3a6c0ea20ace7d96f.png

e6f6902dff26d89d1aa9a0a184c5e12f.png
 
Not having read the item, my guess was he was referring to the over eager rider who accelerates into a corner without trying to assess it properly

I think it refers to people trying to keep track-like lines on the open road, instead of getting into the corners intentionally "late" and having a rounder line in order to have more visibility into it?
Basically just dipping in a bit too eagerly (and too much force/rigidity on the bars).
 
I think it refers to people trying to keep track-like lines on the open road, instead of getting into the corners intentionally "late" and having a rounder line in order to have more visibility into it?
Basically just dipping in a bit too eagerly (and too much force/rigidity on the bars).

I thought it's down to poor obs and planning e.g. when exiting a left hand bend rather than see the up coming right hander early and getting into position smoothly on the left hand side of the road as they start to exit that bend they leave their change of road position too late only moving over to the left later on so need more steering input to complete the change of position.....but I could be wrong......
 
Love a good swoop me. Swoop right, swoop left, i'm a super swooper, reminds me of a song does that :aidan
 
I learnt recently that if I cross the dash line to go to the middle of the other side to have a look that’s fine as long as I’m not overtaking.

If whilst having a look I decide to overtake I can observe, mirror, signal and over take.

Performing the overtake from a good distance away avoids swooping and give optimal control as I’m passing with the bike upright ans bars straight rather than transition form moving out, straightening to overtake.
 
I thought it's down to poor obs and planning […]


To be fair, I’m not too sure either. It was just a wild guess.
I’ve always been able to take a few corners in rapid succession without having to over-think it, to be honest. :D
 
My latest associate was telling me he's been reading last week's MCN, wherein someone from Rapid Training (I think he said) did a piece on cornering. The RT bod commented on "swooping" into corners as being bad form but, it seems, didn't define what he meant by that. So I got asked! :augie

Not having read the item, my guess was he was referring to the over eager rider who accelerates into a corner without trying to assess it properly before hand and therefore risks ending up in the hedge (or worse)!

We'd done cornering, chapter and verse, the week before so it allowed a bit of a recap.

Maybe someone who read the item could comment or Giles re your Rapid Training experience?




Swoopy is slow! Its slow because you're leant over. If you're leant over then your gas/brake is now compromised. The more upright your bike is, the more gas or brake you've got to play with. Take a smallish roundabout - gonna straight-line it and pin the gas over it? or are you going to flick / flack / flick over it and be slower because you're dealing with lean and so compromising your gas?

Its the same with a series of bends (a double bend maybe) but just on a grander scale. With big swoops through your double bend, you're in effect doing lots of lean. Instead, if your steering is crisp and precise and 'quick' (smooth! Thats not an invitation to be ham fisted and jab the steering roughly!) then you can quicken up your steering and spend less time at lean. Less time at lean = an upright bike, which = grip for drive or brake.

Moto3 guys do lots of lean because they haven't got the grunt in their bikes to run deep, turn it then fire it out. So instead they take a 'traditional' racing line and carry corner speed.
MotoGP guys take a different line - a deeper line with a later apex, because they have got grunt, so they run it deep, turn it, stand it up, fire it out. less time at lean compared to moto3.

We as road riders, should in fact be doing that motogp style 'late apex' line. Run deep, turn it, stand it up, drive it out. that line is good for see and be seen, but its also good for less lean and for a much shorter time.

So its all about crisp and precise steering and not big swoopy manoeuvres :thumb2




<iframe width="950" height="534" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_iIX3QzmnM0" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
on the track you can do as you like, on the road there's a pretty good chance your luck and skill can run out.

most roads have a natural speed limit set by the laws of physics, and it's hard to beat these parameters
 
on the track you can do as you like, on the road there's a pretty good chance your luck and skill can run out.

most roads have a natural speed limit set by the laws of physics, and it's hard to beat these parameters


So all the more reason to have good lines on the road, a good understanding about the trade off in grip between throttle, brake and lean and there fore to not swoop about. The point of the conversation about track is that actually, there are a lot of similarities with the line that a modern race bike takes nowadays (compared to days of old), and road lines. We're not talking how to ride like a nutter here! We're talking how to have good clean precise steering, and to ultimately put the bike in its most stable position - upright!
 
Actually Giles, the gyro will be stable in which ever plane you spin it. Upright is where we are at our most stable. All the instruction you have done is for the learner to experience, the bike doesn't need any of that.

The reference to track is valid. It will be a slower and measured manoeuvre to 'swoop' the corners so it doesn't appear to be edgy. The brain has to process the data from the road surface, traffic signs, verges, other traffic etc and that relies on the rider to see the necessary indications. The deeper in a bend you go (please don't ride off into the verge) the more you can see and the more the head is turned. Train the brain to be subconscious conscious, that will leave more processing capacity to think about the lines and what ifs.
 
Actually Giles, the gyro will be stable in which ever plane you spin it. Upright is where we are at our most stable. All the instruction you have done is for the learner to experience, the bike doesn't need any of that.

Yes indeed ....

So lets re-phrase a 'stable' bike and rather than worry about gyroscopes think of a stable bike as ..... a bike with 100% Tyre Grip!
Have you got the bike in a place where you have 100% tyre grip? Is a rider excessively and unnecessarily leaning the bike and so compromising his tyre grip trade off?

If we think of grip as '100 units', then we can apply those 100 units to a stoppie, a wheelie, or Mark Marquez lean angle. But we cant do a stoppie with lean angle because we overload our 100 units.
So there is a relationship between what you can do with the gas (or brake) and lean. If we imagine our tyre having 100 units of grip available to us, our racer who trail brakes applies 100 units of brake in a straight line. As he begins his lean into a bend he lets off 20 units of brake (now = 80) and apples 20 units of lean. As he lets off 40 units of brake (now 60) he applies 40 units of lean, when he's at 10 units of brake he's at 90 units of lean. When he's off his brakes he's at 100 units of lean. I know this is Janet and John, and nobody is reading this and having an eureeka moment (!), but its a good analogy and a good way to think about grip.

So lets use that analogy in a swoopy overtake V a squared off overtake as an example.

If the classic sports bike GSXR rider does his usual swoopy overtake, he swoops out to the offside to start his overtake. He's leant over whilst he's accelerating, the bike is being dragged too far to the offside and he cant actually apply 100 gas because he's leaning at the same time. It feels quick to start with (flick out with a swoop, yeah baby...) but actually its quite slow in the long term and mildly risky because he's balancing lean and gas. Wet road? Sports tyres? Minimal tread on the edge of the tyre?

A 'squared off' overtake sees the rider walk the bike out laterally. Upright. We just move the bike to the right and keep it up right. We haven't gone forward yet. Now I can apply nuclear fusion to my overtake because I have 100 units of grip. BANG! Gone. That style of overtake feels slower to start with (because I walk it out first) but I more than make up for it, because of my 100 units of grip for forward drive. (There is an added bonus that if having walked out I dont like it, I just walk back in. The swoopy guy has gone forward from the get go and has fucked any return if it was a bad call!).

So thats a simple example of Grip, of how the 100 units idea helps us in everyday biking and how by not swooping, ive actually been safer, more stable, quicker, and more efficient. All because i put the bike in an upright position before applying gas.

If we're swoopy, we're constantly at lean so we're constantly juggling out 100 units. I know swoopy can be 'fun'.( i have a mate who fucking swoops everywhere!! But he's slow!! he's always leaning over! 'Yeah but I like it'!!), but if you want to enjoy the performance of a motorcycle, understanding swoop and its compromise to grip is quite important.

:thumb2
 
Slow in fast out......or is that for something else? :p
 
Yes indeed ....

So lets re-phrase a 'stable' bike and rather than worry about gyroscopes think of a stable bike as ..... a bike with 100% Tyre Grip!
Have you got the bike in a place where you have 100% tyre grip? Is a rider excessively and unnecessarily leaning the bike and so compromising his tyre grip trade off?

If we think of grip as '100 units', then we can apply those 100 units to a stoppie, a wheelie, or Mark Marquez lean angle. But we cant do a stoppie with lean angle because we overload our 100 units.
So there is a relationship between what you can do with the gas (or brake) and lean. If we imagine our tyre having 100 units of grip available to us, our racer who trail brakes applies 100 units of brake in a straight line. As he begins his lean into a bend he lets off 20 units of brake (now = 80) and apples 20 units of lean. As he lets off 40 units of brake (now 60) he applies 40 units of lean, when he's at 10 units of brake he's at 90 units of lean. When he's off his brakes he's at 100 units of lean. I know this is Janet and John, and nobody is reading this and having an eureeka moment (!), but its a good analogy and a good way to think about grip.

So lets use that analogy in a swoopy overtake V a squared off overtake as an example.

If the classic sports bike GSXR rider does his usual swoopy overtake, he swoops out to the offside to start his overtake. He's leant over whilst he's accelerating, the bike is being dragged too far to the offside and he cant actually apply 100 gas because he's leaning at the same time. It feels quick to start with (flick out with a swoop, yeah baby...) but actually its quite slow in the long term and mildly risky because he's balancing lean and gas. Wet road? Sports tyres? Minimal tread on the edge of the tyre?

A 'squared off' overtake sees the rider walk the bike out laterally. Upright. We just move the bike to the right and keep it up right. We haven't gone forward yet. Now I can apply nuclear fusion to my overtake because I have 100 units of grip. BANG! Gone. That style of overtake feels slower to start with (because I walk it out first) but I more than make up for it, because of my 100 units of grip for forward drive. (There is an added bonus that if having walked out I dont like it, I just walk back in. The swoopy guy has gone forward from the get go and has fucked any return if it was a bad call!).

So thats a simple example of Grip, of how the 100 units idea helps us in everyday biking and how by not swooping, ive actually been safer, more stable, quicker, and more efficient. All because i put the bike in an upright position before applying gas.

If we're swoopy, we're constantly at lean so we're constantly juggling out 100 units. I know swoopy can be 'fun'.( i have a mate who fucking swoops everywhere!! But he's slow!! he's always leaning over! 'Yeah but I like it'!!), but if you want to enjoy the performance of a motorcycle, understanding swoop and its compromise to grip is quite important.

:thumb2

I need to add just for the doubters that this approach or late apex or whatever you want to call it does speed the ride up

I was a swooper to a certain extent because i liked it ! i like to be leaning ! its fun

I had a day with Giles and tried to take on board what he said ( for the record he is actually brilliant in his explanations and analogies)

Any way on my typical 200 mile day out into lincolnshire or the dales my average speed from sat nav is usually about 45mph but by employing the Giles method that increased to 48 and although it actually felt slower it clearly wasn't and i still think it saved me from the diesel spill in another post

I just need to smooth it all out and keep practicing and that average speed will go up
 
Swooping is fun though, isn’t it?

I ride for fun, not to get anywhere more quickly.
 
my guess there's a time and a place for swooping and zooming....
 
Love a good swoop me. Swoop right, swoop left, i'm a super swooper, reminds me of a song does that :aidan

Fuck. I can't believe I laughed at that. If I had any street cred, it just disappeared.
 
my guess there's a time and a place for swooping and zooming....

Absolutely! We all want different things in our biking and there should be very few black and white rules ! Just lots of tools in our back pack that we're familiar with, and how to use them.

:thumb
 


Back
Top Bottom