Reluctant starter

DrFarkoff said:
.
What logic does that follow????

Jump start with a normal battery and all is well

On a cold morning press starter once = Much Sadness

BUT Wait 30 secs until the lithium becomes "alive" and it spins over normally

How the heck is that the starter???

It is the "energy" supplied to the starter Which seems in this case to be a lithium battery ! :blast
Click to expand...

Lets be honest though, once you get the click of death , unless you know its a lithium (and assuming its not a dead one lol )

your unlikely to keep stabbing a dead battery just in case ;)

I'd have replaced the battery by now if i was that worried - either way if it wern't the battery , i'd know I've got a new one and that part of the problem can be crossed off
 
Santa-2512 said:
I'd have replaced the battery by now if i was that worried - either way if it wern't the battery , i'd know I've got a new one and that part of the problem can be crossed off
Click to expand...

Exactly, 100% you are getting the plan now :aidan , Testing appears to prove that it is a lithium / cold problem

Therefore get a decent battery and jump lead it IN THE COLD GARAGE AGAIN (With lithium negative removed and isolated) and if it starts straight up with no issues on jump leads and a car battery The answer is right there :rob

PLUS to be honest I am not a fan of Lithium batteries in vehicles :blast

Having seen a fire involving one that someone scooshed water from a hose onto it and it just lit the afterburner and went into super fire mode! Scary stuff !!! :eek:

The thought of having that schit in there under my bollox is quite disconcerting! :rob

At least splashed acid you can wash off with copious water
 
Action this day...

This morning I tried the cold start from a remote battery with the Li battery isolated from proceedings. Same performance as the Li battery on its own - perhaps not quite so hesitant given the twin battery set up on the Toyota. So I have decided that the culprit is probably the starter in some shabby, devious, underhanded way - not having the common decency to just STOP and instead provide varying levels of indifference over an extended period. So I have ordered a replacement set of brushes as advised in the earlier post and will fit them as soon as they arrive. I will also look very closely into starter bearings to ensure they are still fit for purpose and not allowing the armature/commutator any eccentricity.

Having said all that and reflected on my history with this issue I'm wishing I had just ordered a new starter instead....

Thank you all for your patience and forbearance and I will update as soon as I have something to impart.
 
Ibex said:
So I went and lashed out on a posh Lithium ion number - and it has made no difference at all!
Click to expand...

My sincerest Apologies to all in the thread I read that wrong !! I thought the Li battery was older

Ibex said:
Having said all that and reflected on my history with this issue I'm wishing I had just ordered a new starter instead....
Click to expand...

Being honest with you Now that I have re read the Initial Post

I very much suspect that it may well have burnt contacts in the solenoid part

Its the bit that slams shut to bridge the battery terminals They do get carbon scoring through service But a battery with a bad or failing cell will increase amps very rapidly

If the scores and ridges line up when you press the button you get full power

If on the other hand they do not you will not get the maximum transfer area

So sorry to misread the original post Brain Fog from tiredness is still an issue for me

A Starter motor would likely have cured everything But perhaps a solenoid is more likely the culprit seeing as you have plenty of brush length and I presume the armature is fairly clean and not caked in carbon ?
 
evening gents gs1200 12 plate
Had the issue of sluggish starting from 20k miles, tried a new starter from motorworks which was faulty so then got an arrow unit from them to replace and all was fine from then on, oh btw had a shori lithium battery and the additional lead kit from motorworks prior to bike being sluggish.
 
DrFarkoff said:
Exactly, 100% you are getting the plan now :aidan , Testing appears to prove that it is a lithium / cold problem

Therefore get a decent battery and jump lead it IN THE COLD GARAGE AGAIN (With lithium negative removed and isolated) and if it starts straight up with no issues on jump leads and a car battery The answer is right there :rob

PLUS to be honest I am not a fan of Lithium batteries in vehicles :blast

Having seen a fire involving one that someone scooshed water from a hose onto it and it just lit the afterburner and went into super fire mode! Scary stuff !!! :eek:

The thought of having that schit in there under my bollox is quite disconcerting! :rob

At least splashed acid you can wash off with copious water
Click to expand...
"PLUS to be honest I am not a fan of Lithium batteries in vehicles..."

Yea. I think we worked that out

I mean, I see bikes on fire all time. You might have a point

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
DrFarkoff said:
.
What logic does that follow????

Jump start with a normal battery and all is well

On a cold morning press starter once = Much Sadness

BUT Wait 30 secs until the lithium becomes "alive" and it spins over normally

How the heck is that the starter???

It is the "energy" supplied to the starter Which seems in this case to be a lithium battery ! :blast
Click to expand...
I have this sneaky feeling your entire perspective on this story is clouded by your view of lithium batteries?

As we all know in here (you too), it's tricky trying to diagnose the cause of issues we post/share in here. But if course we all want to help - you included . But I decided a while ago to not come on so certain on things, for all the obvious reasons.

But I'd still point a finger at the starter based on all of the above

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
This struggling to start (symptoms of a flat battery) especially when hot even though battery tests fine sounds very similar to the problems i have experienced on several Hondas that i`ve owned.
The starter motors have a particular design where by the earth path is provided by three `tangs` on the brush plate which press down onto the starter motor body to provide the earth path.
These tangs become burnt and pitted resulting in a high resistance and limiting the amount of current that can flow.
The repair simply involves cleaning the tangs and starter motor body up to clean bright metal, the results can be a remarkable improvement is cranking performance.
I`ve never had a BMW starter apart but seeing as the brush plate is replaceable and being replaced on the OP`s motor it may be worth looking to see if the design of the BMW motor also relies on a simple metal-to-metal contact points that may have been compromised.

 
Hann said:
This struggling to start (symptoms of a flat battery) especially when hot even though battery tests fine sounds very similar to the problems i have experienced on several Hondas that i`ve owned.
The starter motors have a particular design where by the earth path is provided by three `tangs` on the brush plate which press down onto the starter motor body to provide the earth path.
These tangs become burnt and pitted resulting in a high resistance and limiting the amount of current that can flow.
The repair simply involves cleaning the tangs and starter motor body up to clean bright metal, the results can be a remarkable improvement is cranking performance.
I`ve never had a BMW starter apart but seeing as the brush plate is replaceable and being replaced on the OP`s motor it may be worth looking to see if the design of the BMW motor also relies on a simple metal-to-metal contact points that may have been compromised.

Click to expand...

Thats only one half of the equation ..

you can have brush packs changed, commutators recut / rewound , likewise the big magnets & coils

but its the little things that get you ;)

If the energiser solenoid is Kaput, then all the above is moot

if you cant get the bendix into the starter ring, then everything else is ....

And you cant seem to get the energiser coil assy as a stand alone part for this unit

DAMHIK ;)


Age & experience is a wonderful thing

Ebay & miser are not :D
 
Slipperyeel said:
I have this sneaky feeling your entire perspective on this story is clouded by your view of lithium batteries
Click to expand...

No it was a genuine mistake that I read it as an Old Lithium battery. Whilst working on bikes I came across many cases of bad starting, Of one shot starting Or of the lithium warm up procedure when it is cold basically a wee press on the start button and leave it 10 seconds

So I do have a genuine distrust for them as I have pulled quite a few hairs out trying to figure out trying to find what was wrong and everything checked out and just replaced the Li battery with an AGM or lead acid and usually that was all that was needed

Slipperyeel said:
But I'd still point a finger at the starter based on all of the above
Click to expand...

As I did in the end Bit since there appears to be decent brushes I suspect a solenoid with burned contacts
 
DrFarkoff said:
No it was a genuine mistake that I read it as an Old Lithium battery. Whilst working on bikes I came across many cases of bad starting, Of one shot starting Or of the lithium warm up procedure when it is cold basically a wee press on the start button and leave it 10 seconds

So I do have a genuine distrust for them as I have pulled quite a few hairs out trying to figure out trying to find what was wrong and everything checked out and just replaced the Li battery with an AGM or lead acid and usually that was all that was needed



As I did in the end Bit since there appears to be decent brushes I suspect a solenoid with burned contacts
Click to expand...
Don't worry Doc. I was only trying to pull your chain. Not rile you .

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
The written word is sometimes just not a good medium to convey Sarcasm

But I am a decent cünt So you're forgiven 😜

:aidan

Keep safe out there people
 
The trick with Lithium batteries is to leave the ignition on (with lights on) for about 30 seconds before hitting the starter to "Warm them up". Then they will provide their maximum amps.
 
I hate to spoil this ongoing exploration of the UKGSer Brainstrust, but I think I may have actually fixed it - (and not before time.)

At last report I had finally decided it was the starter so went off and ordered a set of replacement bushes. They duly turned up and I fitted them yesterday. Whilst I was at it I cleaned and lubricated everything in sight but found no smoking gun around the old brush base plate - or wear in bearings. The brushes were about 11mm long, which is maybe just over half origional length. Not bad for a 35000 miles? So I polished the commutator and the whole thing went back together.

I turned the key and it was off like a two year old! Not wishing to be too easily satisfied, I contained my enthusiasm until this morning when I could try it again on this cold , damp morning. Same result. Spun up straight away without hesitation. Job done.

Thank you everybody who contributed to this thread, your advice and experiences have been invaluable. My only misgiving was that I swapped out the starter early on in the problem and the symptoms were unchanged with the replacement (used) starter. Thinking I had eliminated that as a possibility I incorrectly accused the battery. It now appears the used battery I had must have been in a similar state to my own in terms of brush wear?

Until the next little gotcha - ride safely!
 
Great news did you get the brushbox that Boatman posted from ebay If so i will fix the one i have taken off my bike and keep it as a spare?
 
Had similar on a 2011 gsa. Borrowed a friends brand new battery, same thing.

Shiny new starter. Spins like a well lubricated spinning thing🤩

Remembered the repairing starters and alternators from my ‘trying to keep a piece of crap car running cheaply’ days.

Can’t be arsed anymore.
 
Latest installment

Whilst replacing the carbon brushes in the starter on my bike seemed to cure the problem for a few weeks I now have the "Will I - won't I" pause again on start up. Even when hot! So it's finally new starter time. I find that the range of prices is ridiculous though. On Ebay you can see them from £45 to almost £200 - and I don't recognise a makers name on any of them! I have found a local Auto electrician - in Preston, who advertises on EBay for BMW starters. At least if I know where it came from I can doorstep them if it fails... Trouble is, he wants a part number to give me a price. Is there a way to find what the part number is of my starter without taking the thing off the bike?
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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