Reluctant starter

Ibex

Ibex

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Chorley, Lancashire
My bike (2012 Adventure with 30k miles) has emerged from lockdown a very reluctant starter. A charged battery and I get a Yuh.............yuh yuh yuh. The gap is long enough to measure and makes you think that's all your going to get. Then I noticed my battery had cracked! from top to bottom at one end and dribbled contents down the frame. So much for Motobatt - not two years old! So I went and lashed out on a posh Lithium ion number - and it has made no difference at all!

So now I have the starter off - but can see nothing amiss. There seems to be plenty of carbon brush left although the commutator looks a bit black. I can't get into the solenoid to check that content so I'm a bit stuck. In the opinion of this forum - do I need a new starter motor?
 
Can you turn the engine over by putting it in gear and pushing it? I’m thinking of a seized alternator. Have you tried jump leads? An apearently fully charged battery might not be a good battery JJH
 
I can't say I have tried to turn over the engine recently by pushing it in gear although my experience is that that compression is pretty fierce. I did check the new lithium battery before I fitted it and it was about 13.7 v straight from the box.
Once the engine has started it ticks over sweetly and will restart very much more easily when the bike is warm - although left an hour on a cold day will produce the same sort of lag I am complaining about - just not quite as long.

I have never encountered a siezed alternator that didn't make a great row and give off clouds of acrid smoke from a slipping fanbelt . That was a Landrover driving home on the motorwat after some deep wading in muddy water......

..
 
Sorry - I should have made it clear - it does start - just seems like it is n't going to! After starting there are no battery warnings or any other indicators - and it runs fine.
 
Your first battery was dud.

Your second battery is Lithium. Now I was trawling YouTube the other day and one of the respected guys was saying that a Lithium battery works better with a bit of a wake up sequence i.e. turning the lights on for some seconds. I don't know, never had one but check it out yourself.
 
30K,

starter motor ;)

I had similar poor starting especially after the bike had got hot (running)

i tried the additional leads direct from battery (new) to the starter which improved things, but didnt cure it

A recon starter motor did cure it
 
I experience this slow starting on mine, same year etc and find that now i have swapped to the Bosch alternator I does seem to have improved things.

Regarding the black on your commutator, i had this on the heater motor on my van would you believe, slowing the fan down, cleaned it up with some fine wire wool and working fine again so yes clean it up.👍
 
Thank you gentlemen for your suggestions. I work away all week so only got back this afternoon - but clutching a replacement, Used, starter motor. I quickly (!) got it fitted only to find it made no difference at all - in fact if anything it was worse. I feel that this rules out my starter.

So - my plan now is to clean the commutator as per suggestions and refit my original unit. Then I will explore the "warm up" technique suggested for Lithium batteries. I take confidence in the fact that it has always started, despite how long a pause there is between first and second compressions!

I have checked the battery leads albeit only with my multimeter and can see nothing to worry about - but am intrigued by the suggestion of fitting a second positive lead. I happen to have a length of 35mm battery cable. Is it worth replacing my existing lead (16mm?) with this one for similar effect? I can't help but think that this is potentially masking a problem that's in there somewhere and will get worse?

Finally - regarding replacing the alternator; Surely this only suggests that your battery was not previously getting a proper full charge from your existing alternator, which the new alternator resolved. In my case I have a new, fully charged battery but makes no difference to my old battery (with a cracked case!).

I shall report back on Sunday evening!
 
Check the earth leads, might need a clean to restore full connection. Replacing the cables certainly can't do any harm, Motorworks do a kit to do just that, although very pricey for a couple of wires
https://www.motorworks.co.uk/starting-upgrade-kit-ela90004-3.html. Doesn't look like you'll need it if you have suitable cable in stock.

Also check the exciter wire to the starter (the thin one) is showing 12 volts, mine dropped to 5v and the starter wouldn't work. Cured it by cutting the wire and connecting direct to the battery.
Good Luck!
 
Two interesting suggestions there Watty, which I will be keen to try out next weekend. I was planning to take the bike away with me this week but I left it out on the drive this afternoon after 150 mile ride out - and just been out to move it and didn't think it was going to start at all! It is quite cold but shouldn't have made that much difference? This Lithium battery is getting some stick!

You mention replacing the exciter wire with one direct to the battery? Is the existing wire a permanent live?

Do you happen to know where the negative lead from the battery terminates- It's not immediately apparent? I'm guessing its on the frame with an earth strap somewhere from engine to frame?

I cannot imagine what else could be the cause of this problem - so looking forward to serious earth examination/renewal next weekend. Thanks again for all suggestions.
 
Ibex said:
Two interesting suggestions there Watty, which I will be keen to try out next weekend. I was planning to take the bike away with me this week but I left it out on the drive this afternoon after 150 mile ride out - and just been out to move it and didn't think it was going to start at all! It is quite cold but shouldn't have made that much difference? This Lithium battery is getting some stick!

You mention replacing the exciter wire with one direct to the battery? Is the existing wire a permanent live?

Do you happen to know where the negative lead from the battery terminates- It's not immediately apparent? I'm guessing its on the frame with an earth strap somewhere from engine to frame?

I cannot imagine what else could be the cause of this problem - so looking forward to serious earth examination/renewal next weekend. Thanks again for all suggestions.
Click to expand...

Yes, the existing exciter wire is permanently live. The wiring diagram shows it direct from the battery but in reality it comes from a black box of electronic gubbins (correct technical term I believe), hence the probable reason for the drop in voltage.
It's been a while since I delved under the bodywork, the only earthing point I can remember is on top of the engine. Thats a fuel tank off job to get to.
 
Yes, I was afraid it would be a tank off job! I'll check the exciter voltage first but if that fails then I may just run a second earth from the battery direct to one of the starter mount bolts and see if it makes any difference. If it does - then it's time to pull the tank off. Thanks again for your help.
 
Just got a start into the GS this morning. Took off the exciter wire and found it was 0 volts with ignition off. So it's certainly not a permanent live. Then I turned on the ignition but still no volts from the exciter wire. Final test was rig up the thing to measure volts when the starter button was pressed and sure enough, exactly the same voltage as I was reading across the battery. No voltage drop there then. So then moved on to plan B and set up a separate earth from the starter bolt direct to the battery earth and I think that's done it. It did falter a little, but when I left it last weekend the battery had been trying repeatedly to start the bike. When I tried for the second time - and a third after a half hour - the motor spins up a treat with no sign of hesitation. And that gentlemen is how we do that. Now I need to plan a quiet day when I have nothing else to do and remove the tank....

Thanks for all help and suggestions. Once more the forums proves its worth.
 
Starting problem issue continued

Back to the old problem I'm afraid. Very reluctant turning the engine and generally taking a couple of tries to get it to fire - after which it runs perfectly. I thought running an extra earth wire direct from Battery to starter might have cured it but not the case. Not used it in a while and felt the battery was almost flat judging by how quickly it turned the engine. I got it going and did about 20 miles on it. Today I had the same reluctant turning over and then took it out for maybe 25 miles but with a couple of stops. When I got back I measured the voltage across the battery with ignition off and found 13.15 v. I thought it would have been more? I shall measure it again tomorrow evening. Any thoughts?
 
A colleague of mine has been having slow start issues with his Lithium battery. Nothing but trouble since replacing the normal lead acid type. He was supposed to ride to France but has now gone by plane is the Lithium battery is not reliable. Especially when cold. It's left him stRanded so many times he's replacng it as soon as he returns.
 
Are you using a Lithium Battery? Try jump leads from the battery on your car (Engine not running) if it perks up and goes

Bingo! Kick the Li battery into touch! and fit an AGM or even a standard Lead acid battery

Lithium does not like the cold and a couple of friends has li batteries and if they did not catch first time they were fecked for getting them running unless the used a jump pack or their car with jump leads

Just because it shows 13.7 v does not mean it has the 110 amps required to spin the GS motor and feed everything else!
 
Mine was a little reluctant to turnover and start at the weekend despite being on a optmiser charger. After the first slow chug of a "really, oh well if you insist" type slow response from the starer motor it then perked up and started normally from there on.
 
I've had the opposite issue with the lithium battery. I mean sure, when it's minus temps it's very sluggish. BUT I get multiple attempts to try starting and it's never failed to start the bike. With a conventional battery, you only get a handful of tries before the battery loses its chance to deliver the needed oomph.

My tip would be (with the lithium) is to leave slightly longer gaps between tries to allow the battery's chemistry to start reacting.

My lithium battery is coming up to 5yrs old now and apart from this cold starting foible, i can't fault it.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
Ibex said:
My bike (2012 Adventure with 30k miles) has emerged from lockdown a very reluctant starter. A charged battery and I get a Yuh.............yuh yuh yuh. The gap is long enough to measure and makes you think that's all your going to get.


In the opinion of this forum - do I need a new starter motor?
Click to expand...

In my humble opinion, yes a new starter motor is needed.

I had exactly the same on my 2012 GSA when I still owned it. Farted about with new and extra HD cables to the starter, service kits for it, but a new starter cured it. Does the starter get hot quickly? If so it’s drawing loads of current and something is amiss.

Your local auto-electrian place might be able to rebuild the one you have. I got an aftermarket Arrow branded one. £175 IIRC. Make sure it’s the right mine though: these bike have been fitted with Valeo(?) and Bosch starters and are a slightly different shape although I believe interchangeable but fiddly to fit the wrong one.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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