New ‘big TFT screen’ 1600 - Phone cubbyhole thing

Here is an email sent to BMW yesterday evening.

Back from a nearly 200 mile day out from London E1 to Mildenhall, Suffolk. The route up was A13 > M25 > A12 to Chelmsford, then country roads through Essex and into Suffolk, so a good mixture and a reasonable test of any GPS device / navigation app. The route back was a straightforward reversal of the route up, simply for consistency.

On the way up to Mildenhall, I had my Samsung S10 phone in the cubbyhole and my brand new XT on a bespoke mount, screwed into the steering column. On the way back, I had the phone in my tank bag and the XT in the map case on my tank bag. I was careful to be only running the Connected app and didn’t bother with any phone calls, music or anything like that. Similarly, I had my XT set not to recalculate but to warn me if I went off route. I did not recalculate the route at all. As far as I can tell, it was a completely fair test of both the Connected app and the XT.

There is good news and bad news. First, let me say that I am not about to knock BMW, for the sake of it. When the Connect app works properly, it is very good. I like the TFT screen and its choice of views, whether that be the screen with 2/3 rev counter counter and 1/3 navigation or the full navigation screen option. Both are very good and clear. Similarly, the connection and reconnection to the Connected app with my S10 phone is very good. This not the same if I use my iPhone.

First, I checked what figure Garmin give for the accuracy of their latest GPS devices. Garmin says:

Garmin GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters (49 feet) 95% of the time. Generally, users will see accuracy within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions.

So, I should be seeing something near enough in that range all the way through the day.

First the good news. The return journey was, as far as I can tell exactly right with no deviations from the route, accurate speed measurement, presumably accurate height measurements (I’ll mention that later) with very good satellite acquisition and lock. I had the XT set to just show the satellite screen all the way back. I would say that the worst I saw was 45 feet, the average about 25 to 35 feet and the very best 15 feet. In short, just as Garmin said it should be. Similarly, the display / cursor on the display of the Connected app, never missed a beat. No problems at all. In short, both devices ran the A to B route perfectly.

Now the bad news. The outward journey was good (ie both the Connected app and the XT worked as they should) sometimes. That really is the best I can say about it.

The rest of the time, one or other would lose satellite lock and / or position, sometimes by well over 100 feet. The best distance accuracy I saw regularly was 75 feet; a lot of the time it was north of 100 feet. Both figures are well outside Garmin’s own base figure numbers. On other occasions, the XT flashed up off-route (I wasn’t) or ‘searching for satellites’ or ‘lost satellite connection’. Eventually, the XT just couldn’t find its satellite lock at all, the cursor and the map both stationary between near enough Newmarket and Mildenhall. Similarly, the display of the Connected app, regularly showed me in fields or many many tens of feet away from my true position. There was no clear correlation between when the Connected app display played up and when the XT played up, they were both independent of each other. The speed estimation was sometimes way out, well below actual speed, whilst at some points my height was shown as below sea level. I know Essex and Suffolk can be flat and not far above the high tide mark but I was apparently lower than Holland!

To cut to the chase. I would have absolute confidence in using the Connected app and the XT to take me all the way to the bottom of Italy, providing neither of them are anywhere near the front of the bike. In other words, nowhere near where they are designed for and meant to be.

I would have zero confidence in using either the XT or the Connected app, to take me to the edge of London (let alone Naples) if either of them were anywhere near near where BMW or Garmin intended them to be located.

I will download the track log at some point. But, a very quick view of the recording on the XT for the corrupted journey up to Mildenhall, shows far more straight lines (ie no satellite signal) and many more segments (ie the track recording is broken up, due to satellite loss) than would be normal on a 100 journey. When touring in Europe I regularly record reliable track log lengths of well over 250 miles; in other words an absolutely strong and reliable satellite lock, all day.

I think we know the cause and effect of the problem. Now BMW needs to find a reliable and effective cure, please. It’s not good, I’m afraid and it’s definitely not working.
 
Very interesting thread. Good diagnostic work so far.

I look forward to seeing their reply and solution.
 
Thank you.

I have followed it up with a further email today, showing the corruptions and the effect the corruptions have. My daughter’s boyfriend has kindly offered to put my very amateur effort (it was dark and cold) to video the drop off in satellite location and locking, when the ignition is on. He’ll upload it to YouTube for me. That is something well beyond my pay grade.
 
Here is this morning’s follow-up email:

You will remember from yesterday evening’s mail, that the corruption from London up to Mildenhall was, in a word, awful. This was when the phone was in the cubbyhole and my XT was on its mount, screwed into the steering column.

I have now downloaded the track from the BMW Connected app (in blue) and laid it over the route (in black) that I actually rode.

Please note that, as with my comments of yesterday, I have tried my best to be fair and balanced. In other words, I have not included parts where I know most GPS devices go wrong. For example, there is a short section by my house in London E1 where there is no signal at all, which always happens. I have left this out. Similarly, I have left out the loss of signal through the Limehouse Link tunnel, as that always happens and is easily explainable.

I have added a comment to highlight what the problem sometimes means for the rider and where, had I followed the route displayed on the TFT, I would probably have found myself in a real mess. I think that getting into a mess, is what drives a lot of complaints on the internet about the Connected app and others where people moan that their Gamin GPS device isn’t working properly.

Leaving out the small errors (where I think any GPS device would show the same thing) there are 16 significant corruptions on a route of 96 miles. That is an error rate of 1 every 6 miles. By way of simple comparison, the track of the route back from Mildenhall to London (when I took the phone out of the cubbyhole and put it into my tank bag and moved my XT to the tank bag, too) shows no significant corruption errors at all. This reconfirms that the cause of the problem lies in a combination of the phone being in the cubbyhole (ie where BMW designed it to be placed) and the RF interference, evidenced elsewhere.

Please note, I have not yet downloaded the track from my XT, though I believe it will be worse, as that eventually lost its ability to lock onto satellites completely. It though was fine on the way back, when I took it off its mount and ran it on my tank bag. This too reconfirms that the cause of the XT’s corruption is the same RF interference that corrupts the Connected app. I can well imagine that other owners of the 2022 1600, frustrated with the problems with the corruption shown with Connected app, will be no less frustrated when their Garmin GPS device gets corrupted, too.

What I haven’t included is photographs of what the TFT screen displayed. I was hoping to but it was unsafe for me to stop. I will though add a little commentary as to what I saw.

Here goes:

For this one and others like it, the TFT image showed the route correctly but the bike’s position as a circle with a straight dotted line, way off to the right in Canning Town.

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Again the TFT screen showed the correct route but the bike’s position way off to the left in a park.

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The next one is really bad. Let me explain why. I had just left the M11 at junction 28 (Brook Street roundabout) to pick up the A12 eastwards to Chelmsford. The correct route, shown in black, is to enter the roundabout at six o’clock and rotate clockwise to exit at three o’clock, picking up the A12.

Because the bike’s position was corrupted, what the TFT screen displayed was a recalculation, instructing me to leave roundabout at 12 o’clock, to rejoin the M25 and travel to junction 27 at Epping. Then to leave the M25 there are return back down to junction 28 to pick up the A12. The voice instructions were the same. You can see the blue track line of the corruption and where it snaps (correctly) back onto the A12 when the corruption stops.

Thankfully, I know where to go and could ignore the corrupted recalculated route displayed by the Connected app. Someone unfamiliar with the junction would have found themselves very frustrated, taken miles off route, up the M25, back down the M25, all whilst cursing BMW. That of course assumes that additional corruption did not then not occur at Epping, which would heap even more problems onto the rider. I am very sure that is not what BMW want or intend to happen!

Interestingly, my XT was not corrupted at the junction and showed the correct route. This proves that whilst corruption occurs, it is not always the same on both devices.

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Then two more, showing corruption on the very straightforward A12:

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This next one was really bad. The Connected route recalculated, then snapped me onto Duck Street, the minor road to the left, shown in white after the roundabout. Had I followed the recalculated route, I would have found myself on Duck Street going God knows where. No doubt further corrupted recalculations would have followed.

Just like the corruption and recalculation earlier at Brook Street roundabout, the unknowing rider would be in all sorts of a mess.It was only because I knew where I was meant to be heading, that I didn’t follow the corrupted recalculated route along Duck Street.

This is exactly what happened to me in the Ardennes! In frustration I then dumped my phone into my tank bag and BINGO! I was saved, as the corruption stopped instantly.

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There now just follows a whole bunch of similar corruptions, making up the full set of 16. It is pointless sharing the screenshots in this email, as I am sure that by now anyone can see the corruption problem and what it means for users of the BMW Connected app when the phone is in the cubbyhole. That it also affects a separate Garmin XT device is also very compelling evidence that something is very wrong. I have though attached the GPX file of the corrupt track in case of any doubt somewhere in BMW. I, and I am sure Phil, would be happy to share other files if BMW need to see them.

I think it is very important to stress that what we are looking at here is not user error or some temporary very occasional glitch. How do I know this? Because the Connected app AND my XT performed perfectly on the return journey, once both devices had been moved to my tank bag.

Between the evidence presented by Phil to NOG and my matching evidence here to Park Lane, I am sure that there is enough for BMW to see that there is a real problem happening with our two bikes. Everything points to corruption of the GPS signal, whether it be to the Connected app or to a brand new and otherwise perfect Garmin XT. Both bikes are displaying the same blocking of satellite signals, manifesting itself only when the bike’s ignition is turned on. What specific item(s) are spewing out what appears to be RF radiation and why, is unknown.

BMW needs to address the problem and fix it please, as neither bike (and I have to assume others) are definitely not working as BMW intend they should.

I look forward to hearing more from you.
 
I’m going to look stupid now because I’m not certain how to do it. It would be interesting to cover the TFT and dash area with some sort of signal reflecting material, then run another test with the XT. If doing this corrects the problem it proves it’s something on the bike.
 
It’s certainly something on the bike.

Heavy aluminium cooking foil would do it. I did ponder doing it but then thought, why bother?
 
It’s certainly something on the bike.

Heavy aluminium cooking foil would do it. I did ponder doing it but then thought, why bother?

Purely as supplemental evidence to prove to the mothership it’s not a user problem.
 
They’ll have the videos, once my daughter’s boyfriend has loaded them up, along with the videos from Phil and all the other evidence.

My hand was a good enough shield, to restore satellite connections to the XT.
 
I have now had a chance to look at the track recording off yesterday’s ride on my XT.

As I suspected:

1. The outward track from London to Mildenhall is really badly fragmented. At a rough count, the 99 mile journey is broken into roughly 29 individual segments, where satellite lock was established, lost and re-established. That gives an average single segment length of a bit over three miles, between the device establishing a connection and it being lost again.

2. The return leg (when the XT was well away from the TFT screen / dashboard( is one perfect single 99 mile long track, satellite connection having been continuous.
 
Two, very rough, videos I made showing the drop off of the satellite connection

1. The XT on its mount

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CzYGygC_Sys" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2. The XT on the rear seat, then brought forward to the front of the bike

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jCFwUeHau-I" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Here, in case anyone missed it, is Phil’s much neater demonstration of the RF interference problem, directly affecting a Garmin unit. The same problem affects phones in exactly the same way.

Anyway, the good news is that BMW (Germany) are now officially aware of the problem, it having been reported to them by the dealership(s) involved, using the correct channels. What cure they come up with and when will dictate what I do next.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fCOvMpiBHIk" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If anyone else has a 2022 ‘Large TFT screen’ 1600 with the same problem or can replicate the satellite drop off phenomenon too, please let me know either through a PM or this thread. Thank you.

Richard

PS The only additional things I am going to do now are:

1. Download a satellite tracker / signal strength app to my phone, to see if I can replicate the problem using a phone, as opposed to my Garmin XT. This will be a better test (though I don’t think one is needed) as BMW’s Connected app needs a phone to make it work. This will remove any possible criticism on BMW’s part that it’s all a Garmin problem.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.discipleskies.satellitecheck&hl=en&gl=US&pli=1

2. Play around with tin foil. I will even make a hat, as BMW (and Bill Gates) can read our thoughts.
 
Update.

Following some discussion between Park Lane (Battersea) and BMW’s ‘tech team’ in Germany (backed with some assistance from me and the other fellow whose bike has the same problem) BMW are going to try to fix the problem by changing my TFT screen. This has maybe been helped in that BMW, Munich own Park Lane directly ie. it’s not a franchise operation.

On the other fellow’s bike, whose bike was OK until his TFT screen was replaced (to cure an unrelated problem) NOG are going to put his original TFT screen back on, to see if his corruption then vanishes.

Everything therefore (so far at least) points to a possible problem with the TFT screen. Time will tell.
 
Update.

My 1600 goes to Battersea on Monday, to have a replacement TFT screen fitted.
 
Update.

Battersea has contacted me. They are a bit congested in the workshop, so there is a delay on the screen being changed. In part this is due to the software update taking several hours, which uses up time on a ramp.

I’ve told them I’m not too bothered, not least as I said I’d drop the bike in on Monday but they could get on with it at a time that suited them, any time over the next fortnight or so. I had no plans to ride the thing, so it might as well sit in Battersea as in my garage.
 
My TFT screen is being changed today. We’ll see what difference it makes.

Meanwhile, in other news, the fellow whose bike is with NOG has kindly reported:

My dealer has been, and continues to be, excellent but the issue persists.

At the request of BMW UK Technical, they first verified that there was an issue with a phone in the phone compartment losing its positional fix with the first replacement TFT on the bike. As a result of doing so Technical asked them to refit the original ex-factory TFT and test the navigation with that, which they did, confirming that a phone in the phone compartment now didn't lose its positional fix. Their test results correlated perfectly with mine - which was reassuring - and as a result Technical told them to order and fit another replacement TFT which they did. The bad news is that, just as with the first replacement, a phone in the phone compartment loses its positional fix.

In summary, we have:

Original TFT fitted: Phone navigation doesn't lose position (but there are other intermittent faults including connection drops which is why he TFT was replaced in the first instance)

Replacement TFT #1 fitted: Phone navigation loses position

Replacement TFT #2 fitted: Phone navigation loses position

So the good news is that we've established that the fault is TFT example dependant.

Unfortunately, 100% of the - admittedly small sample size - replacement TFT's exhibit the problem, so my dealer has nowhere to go with the fault and it's now back with BMW Technical for resolution.
 
Update

My replacement TFT screen was fitted under warranty yesterday.

I have tested it (a) At a standstill and (B) Only using my Garmin XT. I have not yet tested it on the move, nor using my phone in the cubbyhole or when running BMW’s Connect app.

With the ignition off, the XT showed good satellite lock.

With the ignition turned on, satellite lock was lost (my heart fell) but after roughly 40 seconds satellite lock was re-established again. This is different to my original screen where, once satellite lock was lost it was not then re-established.

My guess is that the TFT screen ‘energises’. By this I mean it powers up and lights the display. The ‘energising’ process creates EMF radiation, sufficient to block the XT from locking onto satellites. The ‘energising’ then stops (or doesn’t in the case of my original screen) and satellite lock is re-established (or not).
 
Through two different UK sources, BMW, Munich have now accepted that there is a problem with the TFT screens on the 1600. How far this extends (ie whether all large screen TFT bikes are affected or just some) and / or whether all bikes are affected equally is not known.

I hope to try out my newly fitted TFT screen tomorrow, running quite a complex route through the BMW Connect app AND my XT simultaneously, to see what happens.
 
Update.

New TFT screen, running BMW Connect (via a Samsung S10 in the cubbyhole) and a Garmin XT, clamped to the steering column.

A mixed result.

1. I would say that the BMW Connect / Samsung S10 combination in the cubbyhole was near enough OK, good enough. This is a big improvement on the past, where it was unusable.

2. Garmin XT starts off OK but is still very unstable; no better than before. It lost satellite lock completely and was unable to regain lock, unless I stopped.

The other fellow with the same problem (who has also had his screen changed at NOG) is reporting the reverse. On his bike the XT is now fine but his iPhone in the cubbyhole is no good.

Why my Samsung set-up is now fine and the XT not, is a mystery. Why the other fellow’s results are the reverse of mine, is a mystery too.

I am going to try mine again, for a few different routes, before going back to BMW.
 


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