2004 GS Top Speed Degradation

Ok, not sure whether this should be a new thread or not, but I'm back with the bike again. (In Fuerteventura)

I plugged in the GS911.

Anyway, the reason for this is that (New problem) when the bike enters the standard issue flat spot at around 4-5ish k revs it basically, has a stammer. It wants to go but cant and that's the best way to describe it IMHO. Once the subtle jerkiness stops, full throttle is good again and it gradually makes its way up the rev range. So I thought, plug the gs911 in and see what's up. This is where the flaw in my plan starts. I realised that I don't know what the values should be. For example, should the lambda sensors be the same voltages, should the knock sensors be the same voltages ?

I have some static pics of the graphs etc and wondered if anyone here could point me in the right direction.

The vibrations that I get from time to time, would, in my limited scope, point to knock or lambda sensors. I don't really want to throw big bucks at this as....oh don't worry, but basically cant be frivolous with money.

Also how do I know which side is no.1 sensor. Do I assume left when sitting on the bike ?

I took these screenshots at various times, but the bike had not been ridden, but sat idling for about 3 - 5mins.

Many Many Thanks in advance.
 

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disconnect the CAT sensors reset vehicle adaptions go for a ride.....

I have had issues ever since they added the later map of mid 2008 (installed in Jan 2018)
'the cold weather enrichment' is a catastrophe (a change it never needed - it was right - they modified to very wrong)
'the reduced pinking after complaints' (brings all the hell you describe in post #21 above with mid range gone mad)

in the end wiping 25k miles worth of adaptions for the original map helped the mid range disasters go in to the background.... but it kept going round in circles (which it now seems comes from intermittent behaviour of one of the CAT sensors). The offending CAT sensor died totally in the summer and then the bike went utterly mental !!!

the fact your CAT volts are all over the shop to me says one is dead.....

I replaced the broken CAT sensor had the bike stock and it sort of went normal - but ultimately was pretty offensive.... I now have my PC3 back in the loop but come winter that wrong later cold weather enrichment (of the later official map) makes it a chugging disaster until ambient temps go over 14 C and then it has always run like a dream if its above 25 C

probably a little thank you for the war efforts
 
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thanks for the reply.

To clarify should the lambda sensors be at a consistent voltage ?

My GS is a 2004 model. It had dealer servicing until 2013, then the rt hon. steptoe took the reins until 2017. the bike ran super smooth under steptoe's rule.

This problem is intermittent.

Also. should the knock sensors be different voltages too ?

i was concerned about the graph showing upper and lower levels of fuel lean/rich yoyo ing too.





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The screen shots of the lambda sensor graphs tell you that the lambda sensors are working.
They are narrow band sensors and switch between lean and rich, they will not report exact AFR readings as wide band sensors can.
Knock sensor voltages will be different as you never get exactly the same conditions in both cylinders.
What is your local fuel quality like ?
Bear in mind that the lambda sensors will run at stoichiometric which is an AFR of 14.7 to 1 for pump petrol.
If you are using E10 fuel the stoichiometric AFR is 14.1 to 1
I have played with PC3 and PC5`s on these bikes using accurate diagnostic AFR equipment and never had consistent reliable results.
The lambda offset devices are the only reliable things that work and remove the hesitation when running an AFR of 13.8 to 1
 
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Try disconnecting the Lamda probes and tie up the cables so they don't land on the hot exhausts DAMHIK !!

The ECU will default to a slightly richer "Base" map as it can't see the Lamda Probes
It won't do any harm except enrichen the mixture a tad But worth a try to see if it is fuel Fuel adaptions or something as simple as fuel quality or even just needing a set of plugs or coils?
 
thanks for the clarification guys; regarding the lambda and knock sensors.

i have used the 98 stuff at the pump more often than not. changed it to 95 but did not seem to make a difference. (quality of fuel is the same as mainland europe here)

i will try disconnecting the lambda sensors

On another note, part of trying to sort out the vibration issues mentioned at the beginning of this thread, i did change the plugs from the twin tipped ones to tradition type ones.

do the twin tip ones make a big difference when it comes to either using 98 or 95 fuel or just generally ?




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no new coils for 80k miles. new plugs though.

also had throttle bodies balanced and valve adjustments done less than 1k miles ago.

i did test the coils when all this started and all seemed fine. ( loose live spark plug near the engine) not too scientific but all coils gave a pretty healthy spark.

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i was concerned about the graph showing upper and lower levels of fuel lean/rich yoyo ing too.

that's how they function (see below) - whilst misticat has lots of experience, the voltages your pic shows look as silly as mine did when it was in its most mental stage last summer... they settled down and sit far closer to each other after I changed the the broken CAT sensor and on my bike both knock sensors sit at almost the same values


Petrol Engine "Lambda, fueling and AF-XIED for Dummies" by knutk I tweaked so I could read/understand it more easily

Emission regulations require engines to limit pollution. It's a fairly complex picture, but let's focus on the subject that annoys us, the fueling of the engine, or rather, a lack of fuel it needs to run well.

Background: Lambda vs AFR (air fuel ratio)
In an ideal world, perfect combustion for an engine is when every drop of gasoline finds an oxygen molecule to bond with, so when the mixture is ignited, every drop of gasoline burns, with no excess.

To understand how well the vehicle is coping (with the fueling its receiving from the various parameters its measuring - mapped to a list of what to inject under which conditions), it analyses the combustion. To do this the manufacturer installs an O2 sensor in the exhaust system. The O2 sensor reacts to the amount of vacant (unused) oxygen molecules. And when there's no remaining oxygen in the exhaust, this condition is defined as Lambda 1.0. For a (petrol) gasoline engine, Lambda 1.0 will be reached when the AFR is at the stoichiometric 14.7:1, (i.e. 14.7g of air to 1g of gasoline).

So why mess with Lambda, rather than the AFR?
The O2 sensor is searching for excessive oxygen. Different types of gasoline (with ethanol etc) may offer different AFRs. However, regardless of what type of gasoline the engine is burning Lambda 1 will ALWAYS be the condition where all the oxygen is used up.

To reduce confusion, we'll stick to common gasoline offering an AFR of 14.7 for Lambda 1, and debate how a Narrow band (NB) O2 sensor works in BMW boxer engines up to the introduction of the 1250 shiftcam engine - (which uses a different sensor type.)

The Picture below is borrowed from NightRider who produce the AF-XIED. Its showing the output of a Narrow Band sensor when warm, where the O2 sensors emit voltage in accordance with this chart below.
24852912707_711974e867_z.jpg


The scales of AFR are adjusted to reflect gasoline that produces Lambda 1 at an AFR of 14.7, and the picture shows the varying O2 sensor voltage outputs when subjected to differing AFR values. The three different coloured curves show the voltage output also changes with temperature. Noting, when you look along the 0.5V line, all three curves deliver the same voltage around an AFR of 14.6 - 14.8.

The ECU uses this O2 sensor feedback to know if the engine is running too lean or too rich. Whilst expecting the standard engine map and its long term adaptions to land a voltage from the sensor around 0.5V / 0.6V (AFR 14.7). With a 0.8V output, the AFR is down to 14.2-ish. and from there on, the voltage reading vs AFR become less accurate. However the ECU isn't interested in the voltage and doesn't care if its above or below 0.5V. The ECU only sees richer than or leaner than the AFR 14.7 target (even when the voltage output slightly varies with AFR in a highly non-linear manner).

When running, the amount of fuel injected is calculated from tables inside the ECU (called maps, hence remapping means changing the value in these tables). The tables offer information on how long (time in milliseconds ) the injectors are to be opened, depending on RPM, throttle position etc. There are actually several maps, but for simplicity lets just say there are preinstalled maps.

So fuel is delivered according to the maps. However, in order to fine tune the fueling, the O2 sensor offers feedback on the combustion. These small adjustments, called for by the O2 sensor, are called Short Term Trim, and it is basically a number that adds or subtracts to whatever time value is being used opening the injectors.

NOTE: GS911 naming
Addative = Short term trim
Multiplicative = Long term trim

But keep in mind, the exhaust reflects the result after the combustion, i.e the O2 sensor will not tell ECU what to do. It tells the ECU how it did. Let's say the air filter is clogging up, restricting the airflow to the cylinder. Now, the pre-determined values from the maps will give the engine too much fuel, since the engine gets less air than expected. And the O2 sensor will tell the engine that the fueling is too rich, thus it needs to trim down on the amount of fuel. In a steady condition, this will work pretty well, but it will always need a couple of strokes of the piston in order to first analyse, and then inform if too lean or rich in a continuous process on and on.

Now if its always getting things wrong and having to try and react, that's pretty stupid. So in comes the Long term trim (adaptions): At every condition (rpm vs throttle position) required Short term trim changes get saved in small steps to improve the starting point long term. So, if a given condition consistently calls for adjustment, its gets stored in the Long Term Trim table. This table thus becomes an element of the equation the ECU utilises alongside its other maps (cold temp, altitude variations, pressures, fuel quality etc.) of how best to provide its perception of the correct fueling for a given condition. BMW calls this Long Term Trim the Adaptive map. Its the map that gets zeroed out whenever BMW talks about restoring the adaptive values (wiping the adaptions), and will take around 250 miles before its close to optimal again.

So, what does the AF-XIED do, and how?
If we take a look at the curve below, the curve shows the voltage from a warm O2 sensor, and this is what the ECU receives. (Data from a -15 LC boxer) with time in seconds along the bottom
49066354797_99e937e9c7_b.jpg


Up to 10 seconds, the engine is running on a steady throttle. After 10 seconds the engine is accelerating.
In the first 10 seconds, the voltage from O2 sensor flickers between 0.1V and up to 0.9V. When the voltage is < 0.5 V the ecu notices its 'Lean' and it will add a small amount of fuel. Then it keeps adding fuel until the O2 voltage reads >0.5V. Now it's too rich, so reduce the fueling. This is done by correcting the short term trim.

At the 10 second time mark, the throttle is opened up. Now we see that the voltage jumps up to a steady 0.9V. Refer to the table above of O2 sensor voltage output vs AFR. The green curve reflects the 1200F temp of the O2 sensor, a fairly common condition, i.e when adding throttle, the AFR is richened to 13.6.

What is the big deal about 13.6? Well, the world is not perfect, hence in order to utilise all the oxygen molecules, we actually need to throw in some extra fuel for good measure. Practical tests have shown that adding a bit more fuel will make sure all the O2 molecules get their share of gas, and more molecules with fuel + O2 mixed means a more powerful burn during combustion, i.e more power

Any tuning of the engine that only involves controlling the fuel to air mixture, will offer very little additional top end power, as the ECU OEM fueling already offers "overfueling" at full throttle (as full throttle has never been the focus of emission control, even if that may change in the future). Tuning that's altering the manufacturer AFR, will be a benefit when the throttle isn't fully open. As shown in the condition in the first ten seconds of the chart above. And generally, when the throttle is opened up in the higher range (the limit varies depending of the type of engine).

Here is where the AF-XIED shines:
Have a look at the chart below. It shows what the AF-XIED at setting 8 does to the engine.
Red curve is the voltage from the O2 sensor and now being analyzed by the AF-XIED, the blue curve shows the voltage produced by the AF-XIED and transmitted to the engine.
48197739222_042b42ed27_b.jpg


The Voltage from the O2 sensor (the red line) is read by the AF-XIED, and it stops this data reaching the BMW ECU. Instead the AF-XIED analyse the voltage creating the blue curve, and transmits this to the ECU. The ECU has no knowledge about the fitment of the AF-XIED, and behaves as if its the direct feedback from the O2 sensor.

Remember: High voltage = Rich. Low Voltage = Lean.
If we amplify the red curve, we will notice that every time the red curve drops below a straight line, the AF-XIED signals a low voltage to the ECU (And Low voltage = Lean condition). The ECU gets a Lean condition signal and reacts to it by richening the fuel. However we don't want the fuel to go excessively rich, so when the red curve rises slightly above the straight line (hence going too rich), it's time to stop the ECU richening the fuel mix. And this is done by the AF-XIED increasing the voltage emulating the O2 sensor, where the AF-XIED voltage output follows the actual O2 sensor voltage and sends this to the ECU. The ECU will then react to this richer than 0.5 V condition by once again starting to lean the mix, and on and on....

As the AF-XIED tweaks can create over fueling when wrongly set up. Its worth understanding how the CAT operates.
The OEM variation between lean and rich occurring slowly doesn't reflect the Bosch ECU's ability for accurate control. Its a deliberate requirement feeding the CAT oxygen (as CATs use oxygen to convert CO to CO2). This oxygen is delivered to the CAT through via the exhaust gases and its controlled to produce periods with excessive O2 in order to feed the CAT. Hence the slow reaction time is to allow for periods with high levels of oxygen. Thus you should set the AF-XIED to a value rich enough for smooth running, and no more. It's why they recommend going from a low value and slowly increasing richness during set up, one step at a time. Allowing time (100 miles or more) between each change, letting the ECU rebuild the Long Term Trim each time the setting is changed. Note: these only save to the ECUs adaptions if the key is off for 10 seconds (and I believe after reaching operating temperature and its been run through all gears).
 
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that was a good read. a lot of it makes sense now.

dumb question. where is my CAT sensor. And is it difficult to replace if. that is my problem?

There are no wires coming out of my exhaust after the lambda sensors on each side

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yep that's pretty dumb - they are the two big chunks of metal screwed into each exhaust pipe down tubes - right near your feet - they have 4 wires and a stupid 1" wide multiplug - best not to try on a hot engine it burns lots

that multiplug is MENTAL on the backside where you can NEVER see is a clip that allows it to slide out off the bit its clipped to - in one end you slide in a small screw driver and it un-clips and slides off easy as - then on the face is a silly bit you lever up with a small scribe and it simply pops apart

see the bottom of the top pic here for the bit that's a nightmare - slide off with the pins coming at you - then you just have enough room to attempt to split the plug connector

CONN-86197~2.jpg.thumb_800x800_mat.jpg


then this bit with the hole (bottom of pic) is what clips the male female parts together - the weather seal holds it very snug, even when a third hand holds the clip open
CONN-86197~1.jpg.thumb_800x800_mat.jpg
then
 
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yes. that's the lambda sensor (4 wires) wires, not the CAT.

btw thanks for taking the time to post these pics. (i do feel quite embarrassed tbh)

I understand I need to go for a ride whilst the lambda sensors are unplugged.

based on the article above, i need to ride the bike for quite some time to reset the trim values. correct or pointless ?



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oh - yes...

O2 sensors, CAT sensors and Lambda sensors - are ALL the same thing

The physical CAT is after the sensors - as its the first sensor that sniffs the exhaust to adjust fueling - on cars - where they care about emissions - you get another sensor after the CAT to ensure the first one is bothering to do its job / protect the CAT

re your last point - As soon as the bike is no longer std (AKA you unplugged ANY sensor) the Maps are frozen and you (allegedly) revert to the std profile map with NO changes.

I don't think that's true - I think you get the last modification of the maps and your bikes adaptions - which no longer adapt (evolve) ever again...
so if full of lies from an offending sensor - you keep them - if you add in a powercommander - then you can part fix them.... But it makes more sense to have a good base, not gobbledygook you TRY and resolve (badly), which might be why Mistacat has always found a PC3 or PC5 behaves weird ?

As I said, for 7 years I couldn't make a PC3 work with the later official MAP - until I put it to standard deleted a mix and match set of adaptions from the original and later maps plus likely a failing CAT sensor - then rebuild a workings set of adaptions then reintroduced the PC3 - BUT because they went so wild on Cold start enrichment on the later Map my bike can't cope with the mismatch of how wrong the std map is lean and its need for the PC3 to richen and the insanity of the cold enrichment and how its far too much from the PC3s extras - so I need the hub and a switch so I can have a rideable summer one and a corrected winter one.... as BMW have no idea what they are doing

I believe to wipe the muddled std bike's adaptions use the GS911 - then it says run through the gears. But rather than as some suggest its for the gear indicator set up (mine has never had these confused) I suspect its more the last bit of info in post #28 -

"Note: these only save to the ECUs adaptions if the key is off for 10 seconds (and I believe after reaching operating temperature and its been run through all gears)."
 
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on my car I can reset the adaptions for std and cold weather maps ! I don't know how BM do this - they clearly need a VAST difference on that later official Map


as sold built Jul 2007,

<12 C - its lean down the bottom, but runs OK
14 C to 24 C - its too lean down the bottom
>25 C - its quite good

official Map update mid 2008 'to resolve three different faults' - it NEVER HAD !!!

<12 C - its got enough fuel for three bikes, and stutters like an un-serviced lawn mower on 15 year old petrol
14 C to 24 C - its too lean down the bottom
>25 C - its perfect everywhere every time
 
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ok, just been out for a blast. temp is 24 deg

bike is like new.


really responsive, revs freely, no engine wobble at tickover. no splutter when i blip the throttle.

I did standing start, then up to 7k in every gear apart from 6th.

Got to 120 mph and was still pulling. then bottled it cos there's 40kmh winds here atm and it pushed me into the other lane.

but good good good.

so, can i just leave them unplugged?

just plug them in 100 miles before the MOT?

honestly. It's like i have gained 10hp, lost vibrations. I hope this lasts


now i am going to plug the lambda sensors back in and see if it stays the same as unplugged.

Laters!!!


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ok. lambda plugged in and everything appears normal. ticking over is a little more lumpy but i can live with that.
so in summary;

I cleared errors on the bike with the gs911
unplugged the lambda sensors
took it for a 10 mile blast (full throttle in all gears)
plugged lambda sensors back in
took it for a 30 mile blast - no real issues (just not quite as smooth).

Bike back to normal. Before it struggled to get past 110 mph. Now 120 is relatively easy (given its a 2004 model)

I'm happy with that (not top speed but the fact that the bike is back to how it should be)

I wonder how long it will last...

Can I leave the lambda sensors unplugged permanently?

Many Thanks for the help guidance and support.



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I think lambda sensors are wonderful, If the fuel pressure drops injectors get a little gummed etc saves leaning out and burning out valves.
They just need a little help ( manipulating). Fit a pair of AF-XIED`s set them to setting 7 which seems to equate to an AFR of approx. 13.8 to 1 and enjoy.
Mine are on my second GS and have done around 150K miles.
 
ah, just found out what one of them is. Ok, my bike has done 123k miles, so similar.

however, this device is quite expensive (300 quid ish) Ill have to think hard about it given I need a working oven and a coffee table. (according to t.he mrs)
(rented house out in COVID and got all my stuff stolen + long story)

I still need to know if I can just unplug the lambda sensor.
what are the long term consequences of doing so. cos the bike was just magic without !

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for the AF-XIED to do their thing correctly it needs CAT sensors that are providing a healthy signal - it says this in their literature...

I would leave the CAT sensors off - sounds like one had sent it in a tail spin, like my bike did - I went round the houses of maybe a dodgy connection ...one was just dying but it lasted 6 years of providing stupid intermittent data - unless u change altitude where its supposed to swap maps... BUT then.... if it only ran the base map forever more - how's it cope in the winter no issue ?

I'm leaning to it all works... with exception of no more adaption development happens with the CAT sensors off the bike (which would be a serious problem - IF THEY HAVE BUILT UP A LIST IF STUPID ADJUSTMENTS YOU'D NEVER WANT)

aliexpress u can buy them for 25 each allegedly NTK OEM spec ones (part of the same group that builds NGK plugs... )

YOU WANT MAD !!!! three stories

1) K1600 had an I-level update and came back running slow as hell and the flyby wire throttle is a catastrophe. one second 1 thou of twist hits the red line next second 1/2 a turn and nothing happens at all.... its just great pulling away from road junctions... you wobble all over the road an nearly drop it.... local dealer reset the throttle (I thought he was talking rubbish but is was less bad.... Then I find out about - yet another glitch of oops we forgot this safety feature and that bit was wrong and oh we won't bother but now that's the 6th i-level update you bike should have.... I got that done and it was still GUTLESS....

Then the motoscan guy had or added the throttle adaption reset to his tool - and I thought I'd have a play - two different elements. I forget one but the one I ended up doing twice as I hadn't read the wait till it complets bit properly.... what a lot of old tosh - open throttle and hold at 100% for around three minutes till the bar chart you think is doing nothing remeber where the end is, then close the throttle slowly...

After doing this CORRECTLY (unlike three occasions at two dealerships) the throttle is operating like a grown up with a cable attached - and the bike is twice as fast !!!!

2) I just had a car remapped (properly with ignition, cam timing and fueling) and they guy said 'oh, if you have the dealer kit it would be a good idea to wipe the adaptions.... and rebuild from scratch'

So checking what I can misunderstand and break forever....

a) flyby wire throttle - reset
b) cold start adaption - reset
c) normal adaption - reset
d crank position sensor adaption - reset - WTF !!!! - drive with coolant temp above 80C, instigate process, now drive in 4th gear at 4300 to 4500 rpm till dealer tool decides the road is too short, then roll off down to 1500rpm... that instgates the second phase, drive at 3200rpm at 50% load till it decides it happy - utterly insane - but it managed it....

3) Merc E class tractor

in developer mode (secret engineering play time mode, the main car dealers don't have enabled on their tool), I came across 'new air fiter fitted - reset adaptions' I did this and sudddenly the car started to behave like it used to - instead of being a gutless mess
 
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