New ‘big TFT screen’ 1600 - Phone cubbyhole thing

[Wapping]

I have chased up BMW, Park Lane.

In parallel, I have been in correspondence with a rational enough fellow, whose 2022 ‘Large TFT screen’ bike has EXACTLY the same problems as my bike. He is in discussions with NOG in Oxfordshire, just as I am with Park Lane.

In a way I am encouraged that another owner, here in the UK, has the same problems, despite his TFT screen being replaced already, seeking to cure the issue.

 

[Wapping]

Some progress….

1. BMW’s Connected app people have shelled up £250 for my troubles.

2. BMW, Park Lane offered up a suggestion of a fix but it’s no go. Though I discovered that I am due a TFT screen software update.

3. The fellow from another forum, who has the identical problem and can ‘cure’ it the same way as me, by taking the phone out of the cubbyhole, has provided a clear example of the jumping GPS positional cursor problem:

More as and when…..

 

[Kritou]

An interesting set of observations and I am wondering if this is due to the original tracklog/s submitted for routing engines useage. There is sometimes a “snap to” speed. If below this, usually very low, figure then the subsequent riders position will accord with the original data which may be a walker on a nearby path. Above that speed the rider’s gps device will attempt to “snap to” the nearest road. As I recall from a long ago Pocket Earth forum discussion there are variations in this behaviour that are not easy to pin down - will have a look for the original PE article

 

[Wapping]

I think I know what you mean.

The BMW Connected app will automatically recalculate (there is no option to turn it off or make it prompted) and it will generally do it very quickly. I guess what you are saying was, did the cursor drift onto another road and the software then snap onto it?

I think that is definitely the case.

In my example, I was riding at say 70 mph up the A13 dual carriageway, following a route to the M25. The route on the screen then showed me to be riding, well away from the main trunk road (it’s nearly a motorway) and riding through a housing estate, several hundred yards away on my left. The route recalculated, asking me to ride up the housing estate’s road and join the A13 about a mile up the road. Then, all of a sudden, it worked out that I wasn’t in the middle of Dagenham but actually still on the A13 heading east. It then recalculated again….. until it then drifted off into a field. Here it had no roads to snap onto, so it simply showed a broken straight line, indicating where I should head in order to rejoin the A13, which of course I had never left.


It might be my faulty memory or imagination, but I am starting to wonder if the cursor’s drift is always to the left of my direction of travel? I am hoping to give it all a fresh full test of the thing again over the weekend. Whilst it will do my head in if the drift is always leftwards it would be quite pleasing if it were…. In a very odd way. I will also try to stop and take dome illustrative screen shots of what the TFT screen displays, when all the nonsense kicks off. If Intakevthese on my iPhone it will mark my position, which should then tie up with the garbage displayed in the track record.

 

[Wapping]

Kritou, I am in separate correspondence with st13phil, who is not a member of UKGSer, not least as his 2022 1600 has exactly the same problems as mine. Between his efforts with his dealership in the UK and mine at Park Lane, we are are trying to arrive at a definite cause of the problem and (better still) a permanent fix.

He has asked me to reply to your comment as follows:

…..
but perhaps you could respond on my behalf that for the avoidance of doubt, all I did was use the Connected app to record my ride; I was not following a pre-planned GPS-guided route so there was no input from the routing engine.

In other words, what he did (very usefully) was ride around a number of local roads, randomly triggering the jump of the positional cursor. In doing so he confirmed my finding that moving the phone from the cubbyhole to a tank bag or jacket pockets successfully cured the problem, suggesting that it’s perhaps some kind of electrical interference.

As you can see, it sometimes snapped onto actual roads and sometimes just onto fields. I see exactly the same thing, whether I run a route or if I just run the app in ‘record only’ mode.

The good news is that two different dealerships are taking the problem seriously enough to investigate and (hopefully) escalate it up as part of a proper referral to Munich. The referral has a name but I can’t remember what it is.

 

[Wapping]

For those that are interested, st13phil has followed up with a further test. It woukd seem to confirm:

1. That the cause of the problem is electrical interference, affecting things.

2. That same interference / drop off of satellite view (which dictates cursor accuracy) that Phil is seeing on his XT and on the phone (at the same time) caused my XT to develop demonic possession, too.

I have used my Garmin Zumo XT to carry out some rudimentary tests, the results of which I think are germane to the issue of my phone losing GPS position when in the bike’s storage compartment. I used the satellite position / signal display on the Zumo to explore if there was any disturbance to the satellite signals when the bike is powered on. My test show that there is indeed some form of radiation from the bike that causes either significant attenuation of the satellite signals or complete loss of them. I shot two short videos demonstrating this which I have uploaded to Dropbox so you can view them.



For the first video as I can’t physically fit the Zumo XT in the bike’s phone compartment, I located it under the windscreen immediately in front of the phone compartment. The results of this test can be viewed on this link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/clq0umficftb1af/Zumo XT Under Windscreen.MOV?dl=0


As can be seen, without the bike’s ignition on there are a number of good satellite signals available but on switching on the bike many are extinguished completely and those that remain are significantly attenuated. After turning off the bike the signals all return.

For the second video I put the Zumo on its mount that’s between the bike’s handlebars. The results of this second test can be viewed on this link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jcq3mzinmjx098/Zumo XT on Mount.MOV?dl=0

The level of signal attenuation with the bike’s ignition on is not so pronounced in this test as in the first, but is still significant.

I believe that this interference / disturbance of the satellite signals is why my phone loses GPS position when in the bike’s storage compartment. I did try the Zumo further away from the bike’s TFT display in order to mimic riding with my phone in my jacket’s breast pocket and the satellite signals remained strong when the bike’s ignition was on, suggesting that the signal disturbance becomes worse the closer the GPS receiver is to the bike’s TFT display.

My XT is mounted is mounted in exactly the same place as Phil’s, ahead of my tank bag on a bespoke mount, which bolts into the steering column. In other words, probably directly in the firing line for all or any sprurious electrical interference that might be flying about.

 

[Wapping]

Good news, of a sort.

In the dark this evening, I connected a brand new Garmin Zumo XT to my bike, mounting it onto a bespoke mount on the steering column. I can now replicate exactly what Phil saw.

When the XT is displaying satellite lock on it screen, even in central London, with an obscured view of the sky, it can lock onto several satellites and display the bike’s potion within 10 feet. Good enough.

If I turn the ignition on, but not start the engine, the XT loses its satellite lock steadily and the positional accuracy drops to 100 feet.

If I screen the XT with my hand cupping the rear or bottom of the device, the satellite lock returns to an accuracy of 10 feet. If I remove my hand, the accuracy drops to 100 feet.

If I turn the ignition off, the XT is stable again, locked to its satellites.

If I move the XT rearwards, away from the front of the bike, the accuracy returns to 10 feet. If I move it forwards again, the accuracy deteriorates once more to 100 feet.

I have spoken to my daughter’s boyfriend, who has an automotive electrical mechanical engineering degree and works at Ford’s engineering research establishment at Dunton, Essex. He had several ideas on why only my and Phil’s bikes are doing what they are doing:

Answers / guesses, without him seeing the bikes are:

A. That they are displaying all the symptoms of RF leakage from ‘something’. It’s a classic problem, he sees a lot of it. It’s sometimes a bitch to trace on a car, van or lorry, especially when you work on development vehicles as he does.

B. He doesn’t think it’s the transponder for the keyless ride, as that is “The ‘wrong type’ of RF”.

C. Why does it apparently ‘only’ affect my and Phil’s bike? Good question, he said….

i. Perhaps some people do not ever use the cubbyhole or even the Connected app, so they would never know.

ii. Perhaps some people never put the phone in the cubbyhole but instead put it in their pocket. They would never experience it.

ii. Perhaps people who mount a separate gps unit on say the mirror stem or even by the clutch or brake reservoirs (or anywhere a bit distant from the RF source) might never experience it or the drip off would be milder.

iii. Maybe (and he liked this one, as they have seen it at Ford’s) there is an optional extra on Phil’s and my bike, which is not present on other bikes. It is possible that one optional extra is causing the problem. He said, try the radio unit, as that is an optional extra on my bike. Tomorrow I will pull the 15 amp fuse out of the radio unit, to see if the satellite lock comes back.

He also said, “Pull anything that has a fuse” as that might isolate the problem. So I’ll do that too, with the aid of the often ignored owner’s manual:

Sadly, I can’t pull the 10 amp fuse as that will kill the ignition switch, which needs to be on to create the RF. To pull the fuse and keep the ignition live, would mean me taking half the front of the bike apart, which will be a nice job for BMW.

He added, the TFT screen itself can radiate as well, as can just about anything electrical. The lights are sometimes a good bet, too.

iv. Some faulty or poorly screened module “somewhere”…. Good luck!

v. Anything dealer fitted, as opposed to factory fit, is a common cause…… They often start there!

Watch this space.

 

[stever1]

It would be interesting to know if the 1250 RT , which has a similar set up suffers with the same problem.

 

[Wapping]

Indeed it would, though the RT is different in that it holds the phone, not in a cubbyhole above the instruments but down to one side of the fairing. That suggests to me that the design of the bike overall is different and, as such, the position / screening of any potential RF emitting components is different, too.

At the moment, the internet isn’t alive with people with the new 1600, reporting the same problem as Phil and I are seeing. What though I am seeing on the US centric 1600 forum, is people saying that, “The phone based BMW Connected app navigation system is crap”. What that might mean is bods being lazy and:

A. Not reporting what ‘crap’ actually means. It might be as simple as they do not know how to use it or are experiencing the well known connection problems, that using an iPhone brings. Connection problems that are nothing to do with RF interference. The latter might well be a job for BMW’s ‘tech team’ in Germany. Who knows, he and I might be the two bods in the entire world of new 1600 ownership to have cracked the problem but not the cause. Or we might be the only two bods in the world whose bikes are suffering. The latter I somehow doubt.

B. Not experimenting to see what is causing the ‘crap’ to occur. Phil and I are experimenting. We believe we have found the reason but cannot yet pinpoint the specific component that is emitting the RF interference.

Another possible reason is that these fellows live in America, where the very wide roads / big sky satellite view, might just be enough to allow the phone or their gps unit to lock onto just enough satellites, so that the 100 foot error that I saw does not get that high. I say this as my XT was stable when I rode up the M20 to London, when fir three full three days before in the Ardennes it and my phone in the cubbyhole had been going mad. I hadn’t at the time linked the madness together, as the madness was random. Sometimes it was the phone and sometimes the XT. I just turned my XT off and, by chance, dumped my phone into my tank bag, from where it shielded from I now know to be RF interference of some sort.

 

[Doc]

Worst I have had on my RT is constantly losing signal so I have no mapping at all which is very annoying.
I don't use it at all now and mounted my trusty tomtom.

 

[stever1]

Worst I have had on my RT is constantly losing signal so I have no mapping at all which is very annoying.
I don't use it at all now and mounted my trusty tomtom.

So. It’s very similar to what wapping has been getting. Tends to show its BMW’s hardware, not the app. That’s interesting as I’ve been looking at the RT as my next bike. Not to sure now.

 

[Doc]

So. It’s very similar to what wapping has been getting. Tends to show its BMW’s hardware, not the app. That’s interesting as I’ve been looking at the RT as my next bike. Not to sure now.

It's very annoying Steve. Did it loads in Europe was easy mounting the tomtom but shouldn't have to on what is an expensive bike. I can safely say the rest of the bike is OK though.

 

[Mark H]

I'm following this thread out of interest, I have a 1250rt with nav 6 so no problems ... I'm wondering whether the smartphone is picking up stray electrical fields / interference when in the cubby hole and close to the dash, sure I read somewhere that it all works if in a jacket or tankbag???

 

[Doc]

Sussed it. Maybe because we are all super intelligent people our brain waves are affecting the phones signal.
Just need someone who is thick to see if they have problems.

 

[Wapping]

I have watched my video again, this time much more carefully. At five minutes long, it takes a bit of patience but I think I have spotted something. Here goes:

A. When the bike has its ignition off, the XT’s satellite lock is stable at 10 feet.

B. When the ignition is turned one but the engine is not started the XT at once starts to lose lock on the satellites. But this stabilises. The columns of the signal strength vanish but the position stays at around 10 feet.

C. When I fire up the engine, the loss of satellite accelerates, climbing so that the positional accuracy steadily falls away 10 feet, 11 feet…. 15 feet…. 20 feet….. 30 feet…… 40 feet……. 60 feet…… 80 feet….. etc.

Contrary to what I thought last night in the cold and dark, the firing of the engine and it settling on tick over, does seem to make things worse.

This seems to me that:

1. The RF interference only starts when I turn the ignition on. Phil says the same.

2. I can make the RF interference reduce or vanish, by shielding the XT with my hand.

3. The RF interference reduces to zero, if I move the XT away from its mount on the steering column. For instance it is all but zero if I hold it at roughly where a rider’s jacket pocket would be, when carrying a phone. This matches Phil’s experience when using the Connected app. It was fine when the phone is in his pocket (and when I put it in my tank bag) but corrupted when the phone is in the cubbyhole.

4. The RF interference grows rapidly if the engine is fired up.

This suggests to me that;

* The RF interference is ‘asleep’ (absent) when the ignition is off. That is logical.

* The RF interference is ‘dozing’ (I can’t think of a better word) when the ignition is just turned on. In other words, there is interference but it is less pronounced. In crude words, the electrical cause of the interference is ‘warmed up’ but not fully ‘active’.

* The RF interference grows rapidly when the engine is turned on. The cause of the interference is fully ‘awake’ and active. This blocks the satellite lock and / or the phone’s GPS tracking ability. The positional cursor goes haywire on the TFT screen and on the XT.

What then becomes really ‘awake’ when the engine is running? I guess lots of things? Active suspension, the active lights, all sorts of sub-systems, the spark plugs firing…. I am sure lots more besides.

 

[Wapping]

I'm following this thread out of interest, I have a 1250rt with nav 6 so no problems ... I'm wondering whether the smartphone is picking up stray electrical fields / interference when in the cubby hole and close to the dash, sure I read somewhere that it all works if in a jacket or tankbag???

That’s it exactly.

I had reported that problem in the GPS section. Mistakenly, I thought it was a faulty XT, though I had been experiencing bad problems with the Connected app navigation too. The Connected app problem I cured by lobbing the phone into my tank bag. Riding around in Luxembourg with other bikes in tow, I hadn’t realised that the problems seen on the Connected app were the same as problems shown on my XT. It is only now that I can see the link and the cause.

https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showt...er-the-place-in-Belgium-Luxembourg-and-France

The only thing I am thinking about is:

A. Putting my smartphone, running BMW’s Connect app, in the dedicated cubbyhole on my 1600, played havoc with the position of the bike’s position cursor. See: https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/590526-New-‘big-TFT-screen’-1600-Phone-cubbyhole-thing

B. I have the XT mounted on a mount, screwed into where the plastic BMW roundel caps off the steering column.

I do wonder if a mass of electronics or something else is adversely affecting the device? But that affect should be continuous surely? It stopped mucking around, when I asked the device to give me an A to B route of its own creation, which is what is really making me scratch my head as to why it is happening.

Somehow I doubt electronic interference, modern vehicles being pretty well shielded, I guess? That though doesn’t explain why my smart phone was awful in the cubbyhole but was perfect, when I moved it not very far away to sit in my tank bag. Similarly, I don’t think it was the bespoke MyRoute’s routes buggering it up, as the same routes ran fine on my phone, at the same time.

If I am right, the only thing it can be is a one off, duff XT, which is misbehaving for some reason when running bespoke routes and / or can’t lock onto satellites very well…… or it’s something else, which I haven’t thought of yet.

Hey-ho, we’ll maybe find out when the new XT arrives. Any excuse to go back to Luxembourg, using exactly the same routes as this time.

At first I had thought it a peculiarity of just my XT. But now, I can see exactly the same thing using the BMW Connected app, too. I can also discount my misplaced faith in modern vehicles’ RF shielding.

Put simply, on fuller investigation, I can now say with absolute certainty, that my bike and Phil’s bike are both haemorrhaging RF interference. The interference is local (it fades away when the phone or GPS device is moved away from the dashboard area) and affects anything with a GPS receiver.

 

[Seawolf]

....Put simply, my bike and Phil’s is haemorrhaging RF interference. The interference is local (it fades away when the phone or GPS device is moved away from the dashboard area) and affects anything with a GPS receiver.

Similar issues cropped up last year when sat-navs were fitted to new R1250 RTs in our Bloodbike group. Originally, the base rested on the top of the BMW screen and the device would regularly lose its location and was recalculating every few minutes. Once a gap of about 10-15mm was introduced, they worked normally.

 

[Wapping]

Thank you, Seawolf

That matches Phil’s and my experience exactly.

Richard

 

[Victor c]

Anything with Wi-Fi is more susceptible to RF interference. Have you tried turning this off on the XT to see if the issue is still present?

Edit
My lad works BT Openreach and uses an old AM radio, set to 612 to track down sources of RF interference. Might be worth a go with a cheap hand held AM receiver to try and track down the source.

 

[stever1]

Similar issues cropped up last year when sat-navs were fitted to new R1250 RTs in our Bloodbike group. Originally, the base rested on the top of the BMW screen and the device would regularly lose its location and was recalculating every few minutes. Once a gap of about 10-15mm was introduced, they worked normally.

What satnav bracket are you using please ?